Luftwaffe shared victories (was: Hartmann ....352 victories or 80?)

[Artist]

Yes I understand what you are saying. I just don't think we should pick on any specific fighter pilot. I think this type of claim happened with all fighter pilots who claimed many kills. Maybe we should just deduct 3/4 of all claims from all pilots. Robert Johnson was claimed shot down in his P47 "Half Pint" in 1943, because the German fighter pilot thought there was no whay he would make it across the Channel. Johnson himself didn't think he could.

[Klaus Schiffler]

Originally Posted by Artist

Robert Johnson was claimed shot down in his P47 "Half Pint" in 1943, because the German fighter pilot thought there was no whay he would make it across the Channel. Johnson himself didn't think he could.

Robert Johnson's P-47 was written off (Category E) upon his return and thus the German fighter pilot was responsible for the destruction of one P-47 and thus his claim is confirmed from USAAF records.

The fact is that some units on both sides had a more "liberal' attitude toward confirmation of kills. JG 2 is one example. The MTO seems notorious for overclaiming on the American side. For example, on 30 July 1944, the 325th FG claimed 21 single-engined fighter which they identified as both German and Italian fighters over Sardinia. The Italians had previously been pulled back to the Italian mainland. The opponents of the Americans were from III./JG77 which in fact lost only four fighters and one pilot killed, a claim of 5:1. The story improved with time where the Americans claimed that Italian civilians near the base stated that some 30 German fighters failed to return, and thus, confirming for the Americans that their claims were understated. Since we have no record of the interrogation of these civilians, all that is possible at this time is to conclude that the American interrogator was putting the answers into his questions and that the Italians told him what he wanted to hear.

[Artist]

Originally Posted by Klaus Schiffler

Robert Johnson's P-47 was written off (Category E) upon his return and thus the German fighter pilot was responsible for the destruction of one P-47 and thus his claim is confirmed from USAAF records.

This will make me think. I just moved (a year ago!) my books are still in storage. I think I read Johsons P-47 "Half Pint" was lost over the North sea by another pilot. I used to correspond with Johnson before he past away, I'll look through my letters to see if he mentioned this. His letters to me are about his spicific missions so they may not shed light on this. If I remember right he stated that " Half Pint" was his favorite P-47. Maybe I can talk my wife into letting me get my books back! Thanks for the response it gives me somthing to try and look up. Robert

[John P Cooper]

Hi All,


I wanted to add some more fuel to the fire here. The following is a quote from Karl Stein (SG 1) about comabt vs. an IL-2.

"I apparently got the read gunner of one because his gun was pointed upwards, and I expended all my ammunition - guns and cannon - on the plane. He started smoking, his right landing gear dropped, and he slowed way down. BUt I couldn't knock him down.When I broke off, he was still in the air though he probably didn't make it back to base."

Although he does not say he got a kill one has to wonder how this was reported. (w.b or prob. ??) Similar to the Hartmann comment earlier in the thread. ~ Thoughts?

John

[Dick Powers]

I've read this thread, as well as the previous thread. It seems as if a starting point should be Hartmann's CONFIRMED victories. Not claims, not end-of-the-war take my word for it log book entries, but officially confirmed victories.

(Just slightly off topic, I looked through Christer Bergstrom's biography of Graf and Grislawski to see whether all their vics were "official". Although no specific informatin is given, Graf's final vicroty was in sumemr of 1944, Grislawski's was in Septemver 1944, both while the RLM victory claim process was still f unctioning. Christer, can you shed light on whether all their victories were confirmed?)

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Dick Powers

a starting point should be Hartmann's CONFIRMED victories. Not claims, not end-of-the-war take my word for it log book entries, but officially confirmed victories.

If a logbook (any logbook) was stamped and counter-signed by the superior officer, it should be regarded as primary source.

[Dick Powers]

I believe that the claim/confirmation process was established to provide systematic checks and balances on individual claims.



The LW, at some level, had a vital interest in estimating its opponent’s losses which could help determining the strength of the enemy. This would avoid a situation similar to the Battle of Britain where Fighter Command was down to its last few Spitfires for weeks upon weeks. Thus a rigorous claim validation process can filter out spurious claims and begin to quantify at least one major cause of enemy losses.



Field units however, had incentives to maximize their victory totals. Personal awards, unit recognition, publicity, all pretty heady stuff for fighter pilots. So when a CO signs a logbook, it can mean that he really believes that Oblt. S shot down an Il-2. It can also mean that Oblt S was close to getting a medal, the Il-2 obviously went down, and so he must have shot it down. In the worst case it may mean the CO wants more recognition and the facts don’t matter, particularly if there’s no one from higher up to check.



Even if the CO, with the best intentions, signs the logbook, does he realize that another pilot from a different unit may have been shooting at the same airplane?



I understand your point, but I my opinion is that until the pilot received RLM confirmation it isn’t a victory. It’s only a claim.



But then again 352 is a sacred cow amongst us LW enthusiasts, isn’t it? And if we had to filter out unconfirmed claims it might be only 250.

After re-reading your post, I agree that a signed logbook should a A primary source. But it doesn't tell the whole story.