Biggest Air Battle over Germany? JG 300 and JG 301 "Wilde Sau" November 27th, 1944

[Boandlgramer]

Originally Posted by Erich

The area you are researching with the contact of P-51's- 352nd, 353rd and 357th fg's with the 2 Geschwaders is in the area of the Harz mountains. 81 German craft were lost with 35 KIA and 14 wounded. Not too good a fare for claims of some 11 P-51's eh ?

E ~

were there few B 17 or B 24 claims ?

[Erich]

there were no Viermots claimed only US fighter escorts.....

The losses I mentioned in men and material was for the total of the day by all Luftwaffe gruppen. JG 301 lost 14 Fw 190A-9's with a claim of 1 ? P-51.

Stab./JG 301, I. and II. gruppe flew with JG 300 which was the I.-IV.th Gruppes. JG 300 only claimed 4 P-51 for a loss of 39 aircraft. Hopefully volume 2 of Lorant/Goyat JG 300 book will enlighten us further on the trueness of the losses and claims.

I./JG 1
II./JG 1
I./JG 3
III./JG 3
I./JG 26
III./JG 27
IV./JG 27
IV./JG 54 with Fw 190A-8's
I./JG 300
II.Sturm/JG 300
III./JG 300
IV./JG 300
Stab./JG 301
I./JG 301 with Fw 190A-9's
II./JG 301 with Fw 190A-9's

by the way this was JG 301's 3rd operative mission with the Fw 190A. Will have to dig back into my base to see the firm losses of this unit: 7 KIA and 4 wounded ?

[Boandlgramer]

erich ,
have you checked out Tony Wood's Combat Claims & Casualties Lists side for the claims of the day ?

if you don´t know the link:


http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm

[Klaus Schiffler]

Here is a summary of Luftwaffe fighter units involved on 27 November 1944 with claims and losses:

I/JG 1: no claims; 1 damaged, no pilots lost
II/JG 1: no claims; 1 destroyed, no pilots lost
I/JG 3: no claims; 3 destroyed, 3 damaged, no pilots lost
III/JG 26: 2 P-51; 6 destroyed, 2 pilots killed, 2 wounded
I/JG 26: no claims; 1 destroyed, 1 pilot wounded
III/JG 27: no claims; 3 destroyed, 3 pilots killed
IV/JG 27: 1 P-47, 2 P-51; 11 destroyed, 1 damaged, 2 pilots killed, 2 wounded
IV/JG 54: no claims; 2 destroyed, 2 pilots killed
I/JG 300: claims unknown; 12 destroyed, 1 damaged, 3 pilots killed
II/JG 300: 2 P-51; 12 destroyed, 3 damaged, 7pilots killed, 4 wounded
III/JG 300: 2 P-51; 12 destroyed, 7 pilots killed, 1 wounded
IV/JG 300: claims unknown; 3 destroyed, 1 pilot killed
Stab/JG 301: no claims; 1 destroyed, 1 pilot killed
I/JG 301: 1 P-51; 11 destroyed, 3 damaged, 4 pilots killed, 4 wounded
II/JG 301: claims unknown; 3 destroyed, 3 pilots killed

I am taking these statistics from Jochen Prien, Jagdgeschwader 1 und 11 Teil 3 1944-1945.

[Erich]

Boandlgramer remember that Tony's is just a claims listing...........


for 26 November 44 JG 301 alone claimed over 50 US a/c and in reality were given 21 B-24's and 1 P-51. Truth is that they clobbered the 491st bg with a loss of 16 according to the bomb group historian/vets and also another 5 B-24's from the 445th bg. I cannot account for which US escort unit lost the P-51.
Truly this is just one incident and if we wish to take the listings of kills as fact then the US 8th AF bomber groups on the 27th of November 44 are in total denial. The US escorts had the jump on JG's 300 and 301 we know this for fact. As to the others that Klaus and I listed I can only presume similiar instances occurred.
Ideally it might be wise to observe the kills "claimed" by each Geschwader-gruppe history by forum member/authors such as Prien and Caldwell, Mombeek.

E ~

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Klaus Schiffler

Here is a summary of Luftwaffe fighter units involved on 27 November 1944 with claims and losses:

I/JG 1: no claims; 1 damaged, no pilots lost
II/JG 1: no claims; 1 destroyed, no pilots lost
I/JG 3: no claims; 3 destroyed, 3 damaged, no pilots lost
III/JG 26: 2 P-51; 6 destroyed, 2 pilots killed, 2 wounded
I/JG 26: no claims; 1 destroyed, 1 pilot wounded
III/JG 27: no claims; 3 destroyed, 3 pilots killed
IV/JG 27: 1 P-47, 2 P-51; 11 destroyed, 1 damaged, 2 pilots killed, 2 wounded
IV/JG 54: no claims; 2 destroyed, 2 pilots killed
I/JG 300: claims unknown; 12 destroyed, 1 damaged, 3 pilots killed
II/JG 300: 2 P-51; 12 destroyed, 3 damaged, 7pilots killed, 4 wounded
III/JG 300: 2 P-51; 12 destroyed, 7 pilots killed, 1 wounded
IV/JG 300: claims unknown; 3 destroyed, 1 pilot killed
Stab/JG 301: no claims; 1 destroyed, 1 pilot killed
I/JG 301: 1 P-51; 11 destroyed, 3 damaged, 4 pilots killed, 4 wounded
II/JG 301: claims unknown; 3 destroyed, 3 pilots killed

I am taking these statistics from Jochen Prien, Jagdgeschwader 1 und 11 Teil 3 1944-1945.

Much obliged for the data Klaus, that must be a handy reference guide you have there. And thank you Bertrand and Erich for the additional information about JG 300.

[Erich]

.50's

A little side note checking through the 352nd fg history; the unit scored 17 kills( Bf 109's ) with the 487th squadron leading with 15 for the date. Smith and Starck were downed and 1 pilot from the 328th sq. on a strafe run was hit and crashed to his death.

E ~

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Erich

.50's

A little side note checking through the 352nd fg history; the unit scored 17 kills( Bf 109's ) with the 487th squadron leading with 15 for the date

Their participation in the battle raises some questions about times noted for engagements by all of the fighter groups. Erich, is it certain those 109s were top cover from JG 300 and/or JG 301? The dogfights between the 352nd Fighter Group and German fighters lasted for over 30 minutes, yet the two main formations of the Wilde Sau were seen by other American pilots 30 minutes later and did not appear to be dispersed.

As far as I can tell, the 352nd group was the first to make contact with Bf 109s of the Wilde Sau and it looks like they departed before other USAAF fighter groups arrived. No Focke-Wulfs were claimed by the 352nd group and only the 487th squadron was heavily engaged. My source indicates that all 352nd group claims were made from 1145 - 1230 hrs. The last 109 was credited to Karl Dittmer, a pilot better known for his experience flying F-86 Sabres vs. MiG-15s in Korea.

At about 1300 hrs. Capt. Ray S. Wetmore and Lt. Robert M. York of the 359th Fighter Group flew into the massive formation from JG 300 and JG 301, distinctly divided into two gaggles. According to Wetmore's account, there were no other American planes in the area and the German fighters he saw were not under attack, not taking evasive action, and still carrying drop tanks. That would suggest they were not attacked since they took off, and it seems unlikely that so many planes could have reformed so quickly. Had they been in dogfights from 1145 to 1230, they would have been low on fuel by 1300 hrs.

Anyway, after Wetmore called for help on the radio, some of the German planes broke formation and flew towards the two P-51s to investigate. At about 1300 Wetmore and York were forced to attack against incredible odds, though after a few minutes of fighting desperately for their lives, ten other Mustangs from the 359th group arrived on the scene. The dogfights between the 359th pilots and the Germans went on for about 25 minutes and eventually one plane from the 357th group was mixed in with them. The 353rd group must have made contact with German fighters at about the same time.

[John Beaman]

Originally Posted by Erich

.50's

A little side note checking through the 352nd fg history; the unit scored 17 kills( Bf 109's ) with the 487th squadron leading with 15 for the date. Smith and Starck were downed and 1 pilot from the 328th sq. on a strafe run was hit and crashed to his death.

The 328th pilot that was lost was a Lt. Arthur Hudson, flying PE-Z, 44-15012 named "Genie Boy".

[Erich]

yes John , thanks, forgot to include the name of the pilot. According to the Blue Nose Bastards history the area in which the 109's bounced the P-51's is not given.


I., III. and IV./JG 300 had 109G-14's. II.Sturm had the Fw 190A-8 and A-8/R2/R8

JG 301 had all Fw 190A-8's/A-9's

neither JG 300 or 301 were termed "Wilde Sau" after June's end of 44 as they constituted day fighter defence now.

not sure if the 352nd wrestled with the big bunch of JG 300 109's or not.

the 353rd appears to have tangled with JG 27 109's