Any known Ar196 losses for 17-6-44 ?

[Hans Mcilveen]

According to Avions 146 the loss of W.Nr. 007 took place in the "Baie de Kajild". I have not been able to find this exact location. According to Michael Holm Flughafen-Bereichs-Kommando 1/IV was based in Albania from 9.1943 to 12.1943 and administered the two seaplane bases at Kumbor (Montenegro) and Durres (Albania). Not a place for advanced training with the Ar 96 but also no known Ar 196 units based there.

[ju55dk]

Originally Posted by Hans Mcilveen

According to Avions 146 the loss of W.Nr. 007 took place in the "Baie de Kajild". I have not been able to find this exact location. According to Michael Holm Flughafen-Bereichs-Kommando 1/IV was based in Albania from 9.1943 to 12.1943 and administered the two seaplane bases at Kumbor (Montenegro) and Durres (Albania). Not a place for advanced training with the Ar 96 but also no known Ar 196 units based there.

Well we have a conflict with the area here. According to Kommandobehörden und Truppenteile der Luftwaffe 1 bis 10 the FHB 1/IV was stationed at Poltawa and Shitomir end 1943!! The aircraft wether a Ar 96 or 196 was not for training, but for liason within the FHB!

Junker

[Hans Mcilveen]

Hello Jörn,
just adding my piece to the puzzle. At the moment I have no way of verifying if Holm is correct regarding Albania. You could very well be correct, and the training bit was purely based on the main role the Ar 96 was used for. Perhaps the German spelling of the location in the actual loss record will help us further narrow it down.
Regards,
Hans

[ju55dk]

Originally Posted by Hans Mcilveen

Hello Jörn,
just adding my piece to the puzzle. At the moment I have no way of verifying if Holm is correct regarding Albania. You could very well be correct, and the training bit was purely based on the main role the Ar 96 was used for. Perhaps the German spelling of the location in the actual loss record will help us further narrow it down.
Regards,
Hans

I would love to see the exact location of this crash! Were does the information come from. I have tried, without luck to find it in the GQM-returns, both operational and schools???

Junker

[ju55dk]

Originally Posted by Hans Mcilveen

The two WNr. for the losses given by David Wadman are confusing.
WNr. 623010 seems to be a Fokker production aircraft, but it does not fit the range given by Tom Willis here .

WNr. 100505 is even more of a mystery: 1960505 seems far too high. Another possibility is WNr. 1005, which could explain the E in D1+FE as a leftover from its SKZ (DH+ZE).

@David
WNr. 1960290 is not in my list! Do you have more details?

Hans

According to my informations 100505 had the Vkz. D1+FN belonging to 4. Staffel!!!

Junker

[Hans Mcilveen]

Originally Posted by ju55dk

I would love to see the exact location of this crash! Were does the information come from. I have tried, without luck to find it in the GQM-returns, both operational and schools???

Junker

Apparently schools. I have only got the operational losses but Hümmelchen mentions it in his overview of school losses in "Die deutschen Seeflieger" on page 187. No place name here but he records the W.Nr. as 007.

[ju55dk]

Originally Posted by Seaplanes

You are correct. In the 100--- series there is a gap at least between 100385 and 100428. According to the Stammkennzeichen series
100385 had CT+KE and 100428 CT+KH. Consequently two more aircraft are there somewhere. Only rarely were there breaks in the middle of a Stammkennzeichen series. I have histories for both 100385 and 100428. I hope your friend could find more about the Fokker W.Nr. I only have seven aircraft in this series and that is not much to build on. Most of the Fokker production was delivered in 1944, but even for the first six months of this year, very few aircraft is mentioned with Fokker c/n's. Part of the problem is that in many cases only the last three digits of the W.Nr. was reported, making it impossible to know if it was an Arado-built or Fokker built aircraft. I hope someone can assist in this discussion, which by the way has turned completely off the original topic.

I do have Wnr. 386+387+388+389+390 the last one with Skz. CT+KJ. Then 428 with Skz. CT+KK!

Junker

[ju55dk]

I have been able to find the entry in school-losses but there is something "funny" about it.
First there is :
18.11.43 Kdo FHB. 1/IV E Bucht von Kanjld Absturtz inflg. Motorstörung Ju 88 Wnr. 474 100%. Crew unhurt!
same date wit repeat signs on unit and place Jägerbeschuss Ar 196 Wnr. 07 100%. F Uffz Rogge and B Ltn. Kellner both killed. Then entry written in hand, and hard to read:
Siehe Fl. Verbände von 26.11!
I have tried to find something in operationel losses without succes???


Junker

[stefaan]

Hi Guys.
I note your discussion.
I have a gun camera shot of an Ar 196 that is being shot down by S Whiting from 213 RAF Sqdn..It says in Dec 43 over the Med.
Do you guys have a date and which a/c and crew??.
It appears on p54 SAAF at War.
Thanks

[Seaplanes]

It seems that the KTB of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M./O.Qu. for 2. December 1943 can clear this problem:

See-Aufkl.Gruppe 126 letter of 29.11.43:
Message of 18.11.43 from 4./S.A.Gr.126, Type of mission not known.
Location 12 km west of Budwar. Shot down over land. No information about air combat.
Ar 196A-3 W.Nr. 100430 100%. Crew: Uffz. Paul Rogge (F) and Lt. Friedrich Krukellner (B) both killed. Replacment aircraft and crew requested.

I do not know why I havent seen this before, it is just one of those things.