2nd TAF - 23/26 Sept 1944

[Henk Welting]

For Chris Thomas:

Hello Chris,

FCL (Franks) Vol.3 pp 100/101:
23.9.44 - 443 Sqn - Stevenson - MJ779 - hit by flak crashlanded NW Nijmegen
26.9.44 - 443 Sqn - Sherwood - MJ779 - Flak hit; crashlanded and burst into flames
We know that Sherwood crashed 26.9.1944 and his aircraft was MJ779 (Crashed near Angeren W of the Pannerdens' Canal).
What's your idea about 23.9.1944 and Stevenson ?

Could you also have a look at http://www.arga-nl.nl ? What's your idea about the Spitfire crashed at Wehl and the engine recovered by the ARGA-Group.

Thanks in advance for your help.
Regards,
Henk.

[SteveB]

Henk

I think Chris is away from his computer at the moment.

Steve

[Henk Welting]

Thanks Steve. Not in a hurry. Important he ever will react.

Regards,
Henk.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Henk

If Christopher Shores/Chris Thomas book 2 TAF Vol 2 is correct there was no loss at all on the 23rd for 443 Sq
They list the loss of MJ779 on the 26th with your details regarding that date.

However Air Britain and their MA100 - MZ999 register lists the date as the 23rd, but with exactly the same surrounding details, such as place and circumstances. No mention of the pilots name of course since that is beyond the book series pupose.

Checking a third source, Fighter Command war diaries part 5 by Foreman, lo and behold he lists a cat E loss on BOTH dates by 443 Sq. No serial numbers listed by him.

All in all, back to square one I suppose...

So I am just as curious as you how this is going to end....

Cheers
Stig

[Leendert]

Perhaps the 23.9.44 accident hadn't resulted in a write off and Spitfire MJ779 could be recovered right away?

Regards,

Leendert

[Henk Welting]

Yes Stig, also curious how this (MJ779 23.9.44) will find an end. But also what's behind the Spitfire engine recovered at Wehl. This aircraft crashed 8.2.45 and we know it was a Mk.IX. Losses for this day:
PL205 - 345 Sqn - Cpt A. Kerourio. PL205 (and not PL202) confirmed by ORB and AHB/RAF; crashed in Germany.
MK529 - 485 Sqn - F/O D.G.L. Taylor crashed way up north in Holland at Haren near Groningen; pilot also buried at Haren.
PL430 - 411 Sqn - F/Lt R.J. Audet baled out safe near B.88 Heesch what was close to Nijmegen and within allied territory.
NH456 - 349 Sqn - S/Ldr A. v.d. Velde forcelanded near Goch in Germany and aircraft Cat.B.

The aircraft that remains is PV143 - 345 Sqn - F/Sgt J. Oulman.
MoD France: crashed near Arnhem - remains pilot 1951 evacuated to France. Near Arnhem means that he must have had a (field)grave in Holland; however his initial wargrave was in the Reichswald Forest War Cem. near Kleve, Germany. This could be correct for a crash near Duisburg.

The pilot of the Spitfire near Wehl survived. It's said that the pilot evaded capture, was arrested near Doetinchem and badly treated by the German captors. Where they had to cross a small brook the Germans went over the bridge; the poor flyer however had to wade through the icecold water. It could be possible that he died on his way to Germany (border about 10 kms). Perhaps "Auf der Flucht erschossen" (Shot while trying to escape) as often was mentioned in German documents !

Could it have been Sgt Oulman (?) where the French MoD mentioned "near Arnhem" ?
Oulman's Spitfire however had mounted (Losscard and AHB/RAF) Merlin # 186885/483280 and the near Wehl recovered Merlin was # 179431/A479553. This engine was delivered 15.3.44 to 7 MU at Quedgeley. Could there have been an engine change to PV143 and the documents not updated ?

One of the many black spots in our files. Will they ever been solved ?

Good Easter and best regards,
Henk.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Leendert

The problem is that MJ779 is reported to have had a fatal accident on both dates, at the same place and under the same circumstances.

One of these dates is, I am quite certain, wrong. The problem is which one! The problem, for at least me, is also to make "educated" (hrmm ) guesses out of second hand sources, when it is even hard for those investigating primary sources to get to the bottom of things. In this case the evidence given in my sources are 1 - 1, with Foreman so to say betting on both horses...

Well Henk
Glad you could come up with another "hick-up" out of your back pocket.
Can't help you of course, but how positive are you about the PL202 and PL205? I doubt that both JJ Halley and Morgan/Shacklady are unable to read the Spitfires record cards correctly. Are you 100% certain that the ORB has got it right?

For everyone else
PL202 went to 341/412/222/345 Sq and went missing from a sweep to Duisberg on 8.2.45
PL205 only various MU and went to Russia on 17.7.44 onboard Samconstantan.

Happy Easter to you and everone else
Cheers
Stig

[Henk Welting]

Also may add that Col Henri Lafont in his "Aviateurs de la liberté" (Mémorial des Forces Aériennes Françaises Libres) mentions for Oulman and his PV143:
"........est touché par la Flak lors du mitraillage d'un convoi routier allemand, près de Rosendael (Pays-Bas)" and Rosendaal is a small town just east of Arnhem. (Hit by machine gun fire from a German military road column). Glycol leak, engine problems, and - as the crow flies - a crash location near Wehl is nearly self-evident. The French MoD also confirms that Oulman died "near Arnhem".

Another possiblity could be that he indeed could escape from his captors and later was killed as there were heavy fightings in that area because 8-2-1945 was the start for operation Veritable, the mass attack of the Allies on the Rheinland.

A first burial location before being reinterred into the Reichswald Forest War Cemetery could be worthwhile to know.

Henk.

[Henk Welting]

Hello Stig,

"I stand in a white sheet" where I pretended that Kerourio was on PL205 instead of PL202. You're right, it was PL202.

Regards,
Henk.

[karl lusink]

Originally Posted by Henk Welting

Yes Stig, also curious how this (MJ779 23.9.44) will find an end. But also what's behind the Spitfire engine recovered at Wehl. This aircraft crashed 8.2.45 and we know it was a Mk.IX. Losses for this day:
PL205 - 345 Sqn - Cpt A. Kerourio. PL205 (and not PL202) confirmed by ORB and AHB/RAF; crashed in Germany.
MK529 - 485 Sqn - F/O D.G.L. Taylor crashed way up north in Holland at Haren near Groningen; pilot also buried at Haren.
PL430 - 411 Sqn - F/Lt R.J. Audet baled out safe near B.88 Heesch what was close to Nijmegen and within allied territory.
NH456 - 349 Sqn - S/Ldr A. v.d. Velde forcelanded near Goch in Germany and aircraft Cat.B.

The aircraft that remains is PV143 - 345 Sqn - F/Sgt J. Oulman.
MoD France: crashed near Arnhem - remains pilot 1951 evacuated to France. Near Arnhem means that he must have had a (field)grave in Holland; however his initial wargrave was in the Reichswald Forest War Cem. near Kleve, Germany. This could be correct for a crash near Duisburg.

The pilot of the Spitfire near Wehl survived. It's said that the pilot evaded capture, was arrested near Doetinchem and badly treated by the German captors. Where they had to cross a small brook the Germans went over the bridge; the poor flyer however had to wade through the icecold water. It could be possible that he died on his way to Germany (border about 10 kms). Perhaps "Auf der Flucht erschossen" (Shot while trying to escape) as often was mentioned in German documents !

Could it have been Sgt Oulman (?) where the French MoD mentioned "near Arnhem" ?
Oulman's Spitfire however had mounted (Losscard and AHB/RAF) Merlin # 186885/483280 and the near Wehl recovered Merlin was # 179431/A479553. This engine was delivered 15.3.44 to 7 MU at Quedgeley. Could there have been an engine change to PV143 and the documents not updated ?

One of the many black spots in our files. Will they ever been solved ?

Good Easter and best regards,
Henk.

Hello
According to A.M. Form 78, Spitfire PV-143 was posted to 66 squadron 21-09-1944.
20-11-1944 to 84 CSU and 21-12-1944 to 345 squadron
Probably had an engine change between 20-11-1944 and
21-12-1944 at 84 CSU
Regards
Karl Lusink
ARGA