Help with research -- RAF 169 Sqdn May 1944

[LQ-D_ND587]

Montana, thanks for the clarification - I noticed that Landrecies is in France after I made the post. Thanks to Frank Olynyk I have been able to get the combat report and thanks to Google Maps I've identified the key locations. I have a letter Marstaller sent to his parents. His account of the action generally 'squares' with the Mosquito crew combat report.

The distance struck me as odd too. To address your observation about the distance between Leuze and Braine-le-Comte, both accounts talk about a 10 minute zero altitude pursuit that included two crosses of the (then) Luftwaffe aerodrome at Chievres. Chievres is about half-way and slightly South of my point-to-point line. I haven't done the detailed math yet but in rough terms assume a Bf110 equipped as a nightfighter with three crew would be good for 450 -- 475kph (given the CR noted the altitude of initial contact as 3000ft). I expect they were at close to full speed with a Mosquito hard on his tail and shooting pieces off the Bf110 -- thus could cover the distance (I estimate 40klms point to point) very comfortably in ten minutes. I'm no expert but it seems feasible to me?

According to the CR, the Bf110 lost a large piece of wing (in flames) just prior to crash landing at Leuze. In Marstaller's letter and from Luftwaffe casualty reports the crew didn't fare quite so well, with both Dietzman and Hurny having shrapnel wounds from the 20mm cannon shells. Both were hospitilised and it was some time before they flew again. In his letter, Marstaller says that they just got out of the Bf110 when they saw the explosion of "his" Lancaster a few kilometers away.

The only significant discrepancies between Marstaller's letter and the combat report are that in his letter Marstaller says be had to break off his attack when the Mosquito jumped him. He said the Lancaster fired a flare or rocket that, along with the Bf110 muzzle flashes, temporarily blinded him. I thought maybe the flare was a distress to attract the escorting Mosquito's but the CR confirms it was Serrate that brought about the contact. Conversely, the CR says that the Mosquito 'jumped' the Bf110 before he had a chance to open fire on the Lancaster.

Which brings me to another aspect! Apparently both Marstaller and Uffz. Konrad Beyer claimed (and were awarded a victory for) a 4 motor aircraft within minutes at slightly different altitudes. It was apparently acknowledged by the German authorities LQ-D (ND587 of 405 Sqdn RCAF) was the only aircraft shot down that night in the immediate vicinity. The CR doesn't mention that the Lancaster (the Mosquito crew thought it was a Halifax) was visibly damaged so this is a puzzle. Les Butler's OKL claims listing seems to bear this out – same grid reference but I'm puzzled that Uffz. Beyer's claim is 500 meters lower altitude that Marstaller and eight minutes earlier! Neither of the altitudes (7,800 meters and 7,300 meters) gel with the CR which had events at 3000 to 4000 feet. I think it would be extremely unusual for a Lancaster to take evasive action by climbing?
Anyway, Marstaller won the Iron Cross, second class for 'his' Lancaster that night as well as another lesser award. Once they got back together the crew switched to a Ju88. They crash landed (again) as a result of enemy action at St Trond on August 18, 1944. This time they weren't so lucky - Marstaller and Hurney were killed and Dietzman was ejected from the cockpit as he had loosened his straps. Dietzman was badly injured, including a fractured skull, never flew again, but did survive the war.

Sorry for the long post, but I find this fascinating..........

For those who know more than me....I have no emotional attachment to the assumption and speculation that joins a few 64 year old facts together. If anyone has a different hypothesis -- go for it!

[montana]

Hi Dave,

Maybe you will be interested by the fate of the other aircraft involved in this mission (Haine-St-Pierre) which all crashed in Belgium :

Lanc III - TL-C/ME620 (35 Sqn) crashed at Estinnes-au-Val
Lanc III - LQ-W/ND347 (405 Sqn) crashed at Bon-Secours
Lanc III - LQ-D/ND587 (405 Sqn) crashed at Gallaix (by Lt. Marstaller)
Hali III - KW-A/LK798 (425 Sqn) crashed at Hoge/Walle (by Lt. Potthast)
Hali III - OW-J/MZ598 (426 Sqn) crashed at 2 km S.E. Tielt (by Lt. Fengler)
Hali III - SE-X/LK884 (431 Sqn) crashed at Rance (by Hptm. Schnaufer)
Hali III - SE-T/MZ521 (431 Sqn) crashed at Zwevezele (by Oblt. Greiner)
Hali III - QO-L/LW583 (432 Sqn) crashed at Posthoorn (by Hptm. Breves)
Hali III - QO-G/LW594 (432 Sqn) crashed at Grand-Reng (by Uffz. Beyer)

Maybe the Lancaster crashed at Bon-Secours was a victory of Uffz. Beyer too... Bon-Secours is not far from Leuze. Estinnes-au-Val is located between Mons and Charleroi (maybe another victory of Uffz. Beyer ?).

[LQ-D_ND587]

Hmm......thanks...hadn't thought about this before...you have listed nine aircraft officially destroyed. Maybe over-simplified logic, but the OKL list (per Steve Wood) has ten claims so that corresponds with the info I had that both Marstaller and Beyer claimed and were awarded LQ-D of 405 Sqdn.

Including the shared victory, again according to the OKL list, Beyer claimed (and I understand was confirmed with) four 4 engined aircraft on May 8/9. The LQ-D claim stands out because of the altitude, Marstaller and Beyer both said they made contact above 7000 meters at the same grid reference. The puzzle here is the inconsistency with the CR from the Mosquito crew -- their 'contact' with Marstaller's Bf110 (and Lancaster LQ-D since they were already in contact) was at approx 4000 feet -- maybe at the bottom of a long corkscrew? However the CR also talks about the Mosquito crew observing three 'Halifax's' from a higher altitude before the engagement.

I need to try to figure this out some more....

I'm going to plot the interception point (from OKL) and the crash site (from your list) and try to 'connect' Beyer with the two unattributed lost aircraft from your list.