A ?? RE: an ace pilot's description of a dogfight:

[drgondog]

In July 1943 there were Two P-47 Groups to escort ALL the 8th AF BC bombers. This is before the 1st Schweinfurt and Regensburg missions of Aug 17, 1943,

[NickM]

Originally Posted by drgondog

In July 1943 there were Two P-47 Groups to escort ALL the 8th AF BC bombers. This is before the 1st Schweinfurt and Regensburg missions of Aug 17, 1943,

Yes, back before the P47s had finally resolved what the best way to escort the heavies was...Did another check of my favorite source & on this day WF Galland claimed THREE P47s as well---the 4th FG lost one & the 78th FG lost two as well as three other P47s either being scrapped, crash landing or abandoned/ditched;

I'm still curious about Eder's comments about his 'crate' having multiple 20mm & 30mm cannons though---I reckon it can ONLY be an FW but who knows---I thought 1943 was too early for FWs to carry 30mm guns;

nm

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Nick

If the date was 14 July 1943 then Eder at the time was Staffelkapitän of 12./JG 2 which was a Bf 109 G-4 and G-6 equipped unit. Wood's lists has him credited with two B-17 four-engined bombers, one as an e.V., that day. Rather confusing as it is my understanding that the Bf 109 G-6/U4 was first delivered to JG 11 on 14 August 1943.

Horrido!

Leo

[Jochen Prien]

Gentlemen,

if the date - July 14th, 1943, 65 years ago today - was correct, then Georg Eder as Staffelkapitän of the Messerschmitt-equipped 12./JG 2 would have been in action with a Bf 109 G-6 with a 2 cm MG 151/20 as central weapon.

The first Bf 109 G-6/U4 with an MK 108 as central weapon were delivered to II./JG 11 at the end of July 1943 from E-Stelle Tarnewitz, where the first MK 108s were fitted into Bf 109 G-6 between June and October of 1943, before WNF was finally able to deliver MK 108-equipped G-6/U4 a/c. For further details see JFV 10/II, p. 27 pp.

II./JG 2 in France took over its first five Bf 109 G-6/U4 only in October 1943.

So, unless JG 2 had some makeshift / home-made conversion at their disposal ( which I do not believe ) I cannot see what type of a/c Georg Eder was flying that day that would have been equipped with 30 mm weapons.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Jochen Prien

[NickM]

MANY moons later, I found out more: the airbattle took place on July 14, 1943. In the Creek & Smith Focke Wulf Book vol. 2, they recount the quote from Eder on the mission in question & his 'mount' having 20mm & 30mm guns. The text gives the impression that 12/JG2 & Eder were flying FWs & not Bf-109s

[John Beaman]

Nick, Sim's accounts of any battle have very little to do with reality. He was a story teller, not an accurate historian.

[Nick Hector]

Hi John,

Do you think there is any truth at all in his material on Erich Rudorffer?
He claimed to have interviewed him and viewed one of his logbooks yet correspondence from Erich Rudorffer that I have seen with my own eyes shows Rudorffer as stating that he has NEVER granted an interview to anybody on the subject of his Luftwaffe career...

[NickM]

Originally Posted by John Beaman

Nick, Sim's accounts of any battle have very little to do with reality. He was a story teller, not an accurate historian.

His oddly clinical way of describing aerial combat in 'greatest aces' was certainly interesting. However you are correct that Sims is the source of the narrative used in Smith & Creek's book.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by drgondog

In July 1943 there were Two (oops 3 - 4th, 56th and 78th) P-47 Groups to escort ALL the 8th AF BC bombers. This is before the 1st Schweinfurt and Regensburg missions of Aug 17, 1943,

Just made a correction to my bold statement about only two groups - I forgot the 78th went into ops in mid April