Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher

why does the term Staffelführer appear in the Gen.Qu.6.Abt. loss returns ... why would a Fernaufklärungs unit, dispatching single aircraft on missions, require a Staffelführer.

Good point Andy. The II./LG 1 posted the loss of a Staffelführer in January 1945 but the mission was mining the Scheldt Estuary by night, which almost certainly didn't involve flying in any kind of formation or leadership in the air.

[RT]

Docs refer to the term Staffelführer , some NVM for example, to designate one that in reality is the Staffel-Kapitän, war end particuliary

remi

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

I think I should probably wait until my next shipment of microfilms from the NARA arrive before I comment this any further. It should contain a few thousand records on personnel dispositions, promotions etc

However...

The answer to the original question, if there is a difference between the Staffelkapitän and Staffelführer designations seem to be clear. There is a difference!

I also have a feeling that the Staffelführer term might be an official appointed term, but that this position was not a RLM and Personalamt appointment, but that it was done at unit level.

We have a simmilar situation with units also. For example, the 14th Staffel of JG 5, the so-called Jabo Staffel was created in a so-called 'auf dem Kommandowege' fashion. Thus - the unit was not created, nor ever fully approved, as a unit in the RLM GenQu system. It was to be a temporary unit, created using personnel and aircraft from the commanding unit (in this case the Luftflotte 5). Such units could later on be taken into the fold so to speak, and given an establishment strength of aircraft and pilots, but not necessarily. My example was not a proper unit ('etatisiert' was the word used by the germans), until it became an integral part of SG 5.

So I believe that the term Staffelführer was appointed to a person that led the unit in combat (Einsatzmäßig), and not necessarily (important! as I believe he could have both functions) organisational (or Personalmäßig). And that this appointment didn't have to involve the Personalamt and thus wasn't an official position.

Note that the Luftwaffe often use these distinctions also on units! Personalmäßig JG 11, Einsatzmäßig JG 5 unterstellt. (example from Norway)

I still believe that the reason the term occur in the GenQu documents are because it was important for the statistical and organisational units of the RLM to know that they had lost a seasoned veteran with an important function within the Staffel.

Regards,
Andreas B

[John Manrho]

Well my two cents....and I will concentrate on the Staffelführer vs Staffelkapitän.

In my opinion you could be become Staffelkapitän if you had done a "Kapitänslehrgang". It did not matter if you were a (Tr.O) or a (Kr.O), at least I don't think so.

For instance, Hptm. Ewald Trost (POW 1.1.45) was St.Kap. of 2./JG 6. Hptm. Norbert Katz (KIA 1.1.45) was St.Fhr. of 5./JG 6, in spite of being a Truppenoffizier. Both pilots led their Staffeln in the air.

Towards the end of the war you see more and more Staffelführer i.s.o. Staffelkapitäne and they were more often even Lt. i.s.o. Oblt. or Hptm. There was simply a shortage of CO's. I have never seen a Leutnant being Staffelkapitän....

In some cases the Staffelführer did not lead the Staffel in the air....a senior Feldwebel or Oberfeldwebel might lead the Staffel in the air. I have seen examples even of an experienced Oberfeldwebel leading the Gruppe..... Furthermore there were Staffelführer i.V. (in Vertretung) and sometimes even a "stellvertretende" Staffelführer who was not a pilot...!!!. There was simply no officer pilot in the Staffel left! Unit was led in the air by a Oberfeldwebel (he wasn't called a Staffelführer!!!).

regards,

John.

[Ota Jirovec]

Hello,

Perhaps also the text that Don Caldwell has posted about this topic on the "old" TOCH back in 2003 may be of some interest:

„..(for the Tommies out there - can't think of an Ami equivalent off the top of my head) that was awarded to a candidate for Staffelkapitän who for reasons of rank, age, training, or experience was not considered qualified for the Staffelkapitän title. Your assumption that the "Kapitän" was an administrator while the "Führer" was the combat leader is false. In JG 26, NCOs who were eligible for promotion to Staffel command were always named first to the "Führer" position. If they worked out, they could be commissioned and given the "Kapitän" title (which was harder to revoke if they were duds). I believe that rarely or never did a Staffel have a Kapitän and a Führer at the same time -- the Führer was in all respects a Kapitän (without the title) and not a "deputy". I may be wrong (it happens) but I don't recall a specific title for a deputy Staffel leader, or 2nd-in-command - he would usually just have been the senior Schwarmführer. And sometimes the man who led the Staffel in combat had no title at all; he was just the best man for the job -- in JG 26, I can name Willius and Wiegand as two very junior NCOs who led their Staffeln at the request of their Kapitäne.

HTH and Horrido!

Don“

Hope this might help to clear this matter a little.

Ota

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, John

For your information a short list of persons listed as Staffelkapitäne with rank Leutnant (there are more):

Heinz Ebeling, 9./J.G.26
Eberhard Bock, 3./J.G.3
Heinz Berres, I./J.G.77
Willi Hörner, III./St.G.2
Friedrich Sellhorn, II./S.G.3
Georg Klauer, 1./N.S.Gr.2
Walter Kropp, III./J.G.301
Fritz Vinder, II./S.G.2
Heinrich Hackler, III./J.G.77
Hans-Ulrich Jung, III./J.G.3

I did not mean that you had to be a Tr.O. in order to become a Staffelkapitän.


Regards,
Andreas B

[John Manrho]

Andreas,

Both Hackler (III./JG 77) and Jung (III./JG 3) are listed on the NVM as Staffelführer......!!!! I will look into this a lttile bit more.

cheers,

John

[Horst Kube]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Hi, John

For your information a short list of persons listed as Staffelkapitäne with rank Leutnant (there are more):

Heinz Ebeling, 9./J.G.26
Eberhard Bock, 3./J.G.3
Heinz Berres, I./J.G.77
Willi Hörner, III./St.G.2
Friedrich Sellhorn, II./S.G.3
Georg Klauer, 1./N.S.Gr.2
Walter Kropp, III./J.G.301
Fritz Vinder, II./S.G.2
Heinrich Hackler, III./J.G.77
Hans-Ulrich Jung, III./J.G.3

I did not mean that you had to be a Tr.O. in order to become a Staffelkapitän.


Regards,
Andreas B

Hi Andreas, you are totally right

I agree with the other the cracks of this forum, but:

In my opinion the original/former question were about the diffecence between a

Staffelführer

or a

Staffelkapitän

The discussion should not be led about if a none officer or if an officer had the special qualification, but:

If a Staffelkapitän was shot down and/or had problems during the combat(personal and/or technical) he had to be replaced by the next best, in the most cases by the most experienced pilot - disregarding his rank -

There are so many examples for this theme already in this thread, so I do not want to multiply them.

One thing which may give us to think us about from veterans as Walter Schuck, whom I asked:

Staffelführer ... Staffelkapitän

who remembers about the last days of war:

Oberleutnant Hans "Waldi" Waldmannn was Staffelkapitän of the 3,/JG 7 until the 18th of March 1945.

Short afer a scramle on the 18th of March 45 in Kaltenkirchen/Hamburg, he collided with his co, Hans Dieter "Hadi" Weihs and his Me 262.

Weihs could land his damaged a/c, Waldmann lost his life.

After the death of "Waldi" Waldmann, the officials did not announce "Hadi" Hans Dieter Weihs to be the next after Waldi Waldmann,

because they did not trust simply the blank sheets of the "talks" of Mr. Hadi Weihs.

Hadi Weihs, surely was a good fighter pilot, but his reputation among the other "Aces" was not so high.

Anyway, the officials did not believe Hadi Weihs story of the real ongoings of the 18th of Aptil 45 and made him (unespected to me) not ... so ... responsible for the death of Waldmann.

Weissenberger ordered Walter Schuck to overtake the 3. Staffel JG 7 as a Staffelkapitän on the 26th of March 1945.

In the meantime, a certain Oberleutnant Wagner was Staffelführer of the 3./JG 7, before Staffelkapitän Oberleutant Walter Schuck overtook the Staffel (3./JG 7) as as Staffelführer.

This is certified and true.

All the best, Horst