Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?

[RT]

Docs refer to the term Staffelführer , some NVM for example, to designate one that in reality is the Staffel-Kapitän, war end particuliary

remi

[Andy Fletcher]

Don Caldwell in "The JG 26 War Diary Vol II" (p481 - Glossaries, 3. German Terms) defines Staffelführer as "Squadron Leader (temporary or probationary)"

Christer Bergström in "Black Cross Red Star Vol II" (xii - Glossary) defines Staffelführer as "German acting aviation squadron commander"

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

I think I should probably wait until my next shipment of microfilms from the NARA arrive before I comment this any further. It should contain a few thousand records on personnel dispositions, promotions etc

However...

The answer to the original question, if there is a difference between the Staffelkapitän and Staffelführer designations seem to be clear. There is a difference!

I also have a feeling that the Staffelführer term might be an official appointed term, but that this position was not a RLM and Personalamt appointment, but that it was done at unit level.

We have a simmilar situation with units also. For example, the 14th Staffel of JG 5, the so-called Jabo Staffel was created in a so-called 'auf dem Kommandowege' fashion. Thus - the unit was not created, nor ever fully approved, as a unit in the RLM GenQu system. It was to be a temporary unit, created using personnel and aircraft from the commanding unit (in this case the Luftflotte 5). Such units could later on be taken into the fold so to speak, and given an establishment strength of aircraft and pilots, but not necessarily. My example was not a proper unit ('etatisiert' was the word used by the germans), until it became an integral part of SG 5.

So I believe that the term Staffelführer was appointed to a person that led the unit in combat (Einsatzmäßig), and not necessarily (important! as I believe he could have both functions) organisational (or Personalmäßig). And that this appointment didn't have to involve the Personalamt and thus wasn't an official position.

Note that the Luftwaffe often use these distinctions also on units! Personalmäßig JG 11, Einsatzmäßig JG 5 unterstellt. (example from Norway)

I still believe that the reason the term occur in the GenQu documents are because it was important for the statistical and organisational units of the RLM to know that they had lost a seasoned veteran with an important function within the Staffel.

Regards,
Andreas B

[John Manrho]

Well my two cents....and I will concentrate on the Staffelführer vs Staffelkapitän.

In my opinion you could be become Staffelkapitän if you had done a "Kapitänslehrgang". It did not matter if you were a (Tr.O) or a (Kr.O), at least I don't think so.

For instance, Hptm. Ewald Trost (POW 1.1.45) was St.Kap. of 2./JG 6. Hptm. Norbert Katz (KIA 1.1.45) was St.Fhr. of 5./JG 6, in spite of being a Truppenoffizier. Both pilots led their Staffeln in the air.

Towards the end of the war you see more and more Staffelführer i.s.o. Staffelkapitäne and they were more often even Lt. i.s.o. Oblt. or Hptm. There was simply a shortage of CO's. I have never seen a Leutnant being Staffelkapitän....

In some cases the Staffelführer did not lead the Staffel in the air....a senior Feldwebel or Oberfeldwebel might lead the Staffel in the air. I have seen examples even of an experienced Oberfeldwebel leading the Gruppe..... Furthermore there were Staffelführer i.V. (in Vertretung) and sometimes even a "stellvertretende" Staffelführer who was not a pilot...!!!. There was simply no officer pilot in the Staffel left! Unit was led in the air by a Oberfeldwebel (he wasn't called a Staffelführer!!!).

regards,

John.

[Ota Jirovec]

Hello,

Perhaps also the text that Don Caldwell has posted about this topic on the "old" TOCH back in 2003 may be of some interest:

„..(for the Tommies out there - can't think of an Ami equivalent off the top of my head) that was awarded to a candidate for Staffelkapitän who for reasons of rank, age, training, or experience was not considered qualified for the Staffelkapitän title. Your assumption that the "Kapitän" was an administrator while the "Führer" was the combat leader is false. In JG 26, NCOs who were eligible for promotion to Staffel command were always named first to the "Führer" position. If they worked out, they could be commissioned and given the "Kapitän" title (which was harder to revoke if they were duds). I believe that rarely or never did a Staffel have a Kapitän and a Führer at the same time -- the Führer was in all respects a Kapitän (without the title) and not a "deputy". I may be wrong (it happens) but I don't recall a specific title for a deputy Staffel leader, or 2nd-in-command - he would usually just have been the senior Schwarmführer. And sometimes the man who led the Staffel in combat had no title at all; he was just the best man for the job -- in JG 26, I can name Willius and Wiegand as two very junior NCOs who led their Staffeln at the request of their Kapitäne.

HTH and Horrido!

Don“

Hope this might help to clear this matter a little.

Ota

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, John

For your information a short list of persons listed as Staffelkapitäne with rank Leutnant (there are more):

Heinz Ebeling, 9./J.G.26
Eberhard Bock, 3./J.G.3
Heinz Berres, I./J.G.77
Willi Hörner, III./St.G.2
Friedrich Sellhorn, II./S.G.3
Georg Klauer, 1./N.S.Gr.2
Walter Kropp, III./J.G.301
Fritz Vinder, II./S.G.2
Heinrich Hackler, III./J.G.77
Hans-Ulrich Jung, III./J.G.3

I did not mean that you had to be a Tr.O. in order to become a Staffelkapitän.


Regards,
Andreas B

[John Manrho]

Andreas,

Both Hackler (III./JG 77) and Jung (III./JG 3) are listed on the NVM as Staffelführer......!!!! I will look into this a lttile bit more.

cheers,

John

[byron-]

it was the same thing by the german army:

Kompanie-Chef and Kompanie-Führer.

Kp.Fü. was replacing the Kp.Chef and could be a Ltn. aswell. This condition could last months.

[John Manrho]

Andreas,

I checked numerous records and came up with the following;

Lt. Heinrich Hackler was Staffelführer 11./JG 77 until his death on 1.1.45. This is supported by NVM and other documents. I assume your source is RL2-III-1172/48, but that seems clearly an error.

Lt. Hans-Ulrich Jung was Staffelführer 10./JG 3 until his death on 1.1.45. Again supported by NVM. I assume your source is RL2-III-1172/68, which must be wrong.

Lt. Walter Kropp was a young pilot (still Ofhr in Nov 1944) and was Staffelführer 6./JG 301 on 14.1.45 when he was wounded and Staffelführer 8./JG 301 on 2.3.1945 when he was killed. Source: Notes from NVM.

Lt. Heinz-Edgar Berres was killed as Oberleutnant and Staffelkapitän of 1./JG 77 on 25.7.1943 (NVM). In March/April 1943 he led 1./JG 77 and 3./JG 77 as Staffelführer, at least that is my believe.

Lt. Eberhard Bock was still Staffelführer of 3./JG 3 on 24.6.1941 (NVM). This allthough he had led the Staffel since Sept 1940. He later became Oberleutnant and Staffelkapitän of 3./JG 3 which became later 6./JG 1.

The others I did not check, but if your sources are Gen.Qm. records only I would be very carefull. These records are not the most accurate ones.

Thanks,

John.

[Kaczmarek]

The Staffelkapitän was appointed officially. The Staffelführer led an Staffel as long as there wasn't any new Staffelkapitän. For example at death. The more experienced pilot commanded the Staffel in the air without consideration on the rank. An Staffelführer only led an Staffel temporarily or on a trial basis. They could be appointed to Staffelkapitän officially if they proved themselves. Independent whether Kr.O. or Tr.O.

Kaczmarek