Book on French AF 1939-40?

Ruy, I tried to send you a PM but your box is full. Please do something, thanks.

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

The high ranking french officers didn't come to the field, the British delegation visits them (at their respective headquarters?).

-Yes this is fully possible but not credible - 0 % credibility - on the day of a massive German air attack aimed at airfields the Allies were aware of! You may be crazy but there are some limits somewhere. Please remember that general Vuillemin was the C-i-C of the French Air Force and on this battle day he had other concerns than drinking a nice cup of tea with a few Rosbifs.

Douglas is just expressing surprise that there is no welcome, which is then explained by the impending air attack. Something that could serve as a confirmation of the date.

- My foot! They probably made a navigation error and landed at a wrong airfield, possibly Orly, Marseille or Bordeaux! Then Douglas didn't want to admit such an error... Coming PRECISELY on June 3 is out of the question. They had about 95 % chances of being shot down by German fighters, or by FRENCH fighters, or by French AAA. This is RI-DI-CU-LOUS, please try to understand at last. Why not on June 1st or 4th, hmmm? Why precilesy June 3? To be able to libel every single Frenchman afterwards? No high-ranking HQ general from any country ever went on sight-seeing PRECISELY at the place and on the day of a big battle.

The talks themselves don't seem out of place either, the British looking for some reassurance in case Italy entered the war. The extended text wasn't quoted by me, so don't be too quick to dismiss events.

- This is all very fine but why the hell precisely on June 3?

His personal courage should not be questioned, he was just being realistic in his assessment.

- Come on! I was just joking about rushing into some shelter. I would have run faster myself and taken shelter first!

I'm disappointed to see a lot of assumptions and at best educated guesses.

- Is this aimed at sweet little me? I only can repeat that the whole Sholto Douglas-story is totally incredible from the first to the last word. It is not true. It was entirely invented, possibly to show (after the war!) what a hero SD was. Remember that his behavior during the Battle of Britain was extremely objectionable in the "big wing" discussion. Later his "nonstop offensive" which achieved nothing but heavy British losses really was no basis for glory (see "The JG 26 War Diary", volume 1, by D. Caldwell, page 212). He needed to show what a great man he was, for he was not.

If the dates and places are correct, - GZ : BUT THEY ARE NOT! - I am not convinced that Douglas did not see numerous fighters, and that he did see air force personnel in the officers' mess. Whatever misinterpretations he may have made, it left a bad impression on him.

Now please let us travel from France to England, namely to many RAF fighter airfields during the Battle of Britain. It certainly happened often that RAF fighters did not take off when German formations were flying overhead and even bombing nearby places. How come? They were waiting, and rightly so, for the order to take off and accomplish their mission within a whole, complex strategical and tactical system. A foreign observer as dumb as Sholto Douglas, possibly a Franek Grabowski, would have been outraged at all the RAF fighter pilots not jumping at the enemy's throat immediately.

See?

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Grozibou

They were waiting, and rightly so, for the order to take off and accomplish their mission within a whole, complex strategical and tactical system. A foreign observer as dumb as Sholto Douglas, possibly a Franek Grabowski, would have been outraged at all the RAF fighter pilots not jumping at the enemy's throat immediately.

Nope, Krasnodębski and Zumbach were pilots with some experience, and knew their trade. Quite contrary to you, they were at Etampes, and took part in those combats. They managed to UK and they wrote their statements for Polish officials. They marked quite clearly, that the French pilots from Etampes did not want to engage the enemy. They either flew in the other direction or engaged solitary aircraft, instead going for the main force. Poles and Czechs commented, that French pilots took best aircraft in order to escape faster from the enemy, leaving crap for their allies.
This is in perfect agreement with the situation at Villacoublay.
I suggest you to look further for French airmen at both Etampes and Villacoublay, instead of suggesting that Zumbach had no knowledge about fighter tactics. The latter makes you just ridiculous.

[robert]

Actually Zumbach didn`t take part in air combats in September 1939 so I doubt in his combat experience at this stage.

Robert

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by robert

Actually Zumbach didn`t take part in air combats in September 1939 so I doubt in his combat experience at this stage.

Robert

Lesson one, reading of text and understanding it.

Nope, Krasnodębski and Zumbach were pilots with some experience, and knew their trade.

Where is combat experience mentioned?

[robert]

So I must say that you are just ridiculous because every pilot in French Campaign has had some experience unless you mean cooking experience.

Robert

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

...instead of suggesting that Zumbach had no knowledge about fighter tactics. The latter makes you just ridiculous.

- Did I suggest such a thing? When? Where? Please be exact.

Who is ridiculous?

My dear Ruy, my dear, dear, adored sweet Franek, you're wonderful and so clever but alas real life is catching up with me and I have a few other duties so I can't explain extremely obvious things for you for the 100th time (it seems you can't read English properly or that you don't want to...).

Once more we can see that the 1940 French air force is the only air force in the world which can be insulted at will by all possible incompetent, dirty people. This is a little strange indeed. There must be some explanation...

Don't worry : I'm not forgetting you. I'll be back.

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

I suggest you to look further for French airmen at both Etampes and Villacoublay

- OK, I looked at this.

Etampes : on June 3, 1940 the following victories were won by the local flight based at Etampes; it was equipped mainly with MS 406s and also with 3 MB 151-152s :

Victories :

Benausse (French) 1 certain victory (plus one probable on June 5)

Balmer (FRench) 1 certain and 1 probable victories

Karubin (Polish) 1 certain vict.

Three to one for the "non-eager-to-fight" Frenchmen although there were very numerous Poles in the local flights (for lack of time to re-train them in time and post them to regular fighter squadrons).

Villacoublay : never mentioned.

Losses (Etampes only) :

French adjdt. Doucet ( senior "sous-officier", NCO) wounded in combat

Ptacek and Vopalecy (both Czech) wounded in combat too.

SOURCE : "AVIONS" hors série N° 7 : La Chasse française inconnue mai-juin 1940 (special issue on French local air defence flights).

Villacoublay is OT. Some regular, permanent Groupes de chasse were based there from time to time : GC I/4 (Curtiss) May 21-June 1; GC II/8 (Bloch 152) May 20-27; GC I/145 (purely Polish, CR 714 fighters) May 17-June 2.

Source : Paul Martin.

That's all. A few units visited Villa 1939 but this is completely off topic.

To sum up : Polish losses or victories (Etampes) on June 3 : none, zero, 0, nada, nitshevo, ingenting, niente, que dalle mon pote. I suspect the POLISH pilots were hiding in concrete shelters whereas French and Czech comrades were fighting and dying for them (13 pilots KIA on the same day). Where was big mouth Zumbach all the time? How come this great ace didn't score and wasn't wounded either? He was so keen and so eager to fight : why was he not KIA in this very big air battle, "Operation Paula" against the whole Paris area?

All French pilots at Etampes were NCOs with 3 adjts. or adjt-chefs, most of them junior ones (sergent). The Czech section comprised two (senior)lieutenants - superior in rank to any French pilot.

The Poles based at Etampes comprised Zumbach, who was an officer -sous-lt. - senior to all French pilots, and commandant (major/Sqn Ldr) Krasnodebski, an "officier supérieur" (from Commandant upward) who certainly would not have tolerated nor accepted any discrimination of Polish pilots by French NCOs! Discrimination was out of the question anyway for, as I already mentioned, Czech and Polish pilots were a VERY WELCOME and VERY USEFUL reinforcement of their French comrades who, at the end of the French Campaign, had suffered approx. 40 % losses in men killed (30 %), wounded or prisoners (a small minority) shot down behind the German lines.

As you can see all this vicious anti-French propaganda, libelling and insulting is devoid of any justification. Admittedly all French pilots (who were well-trained) possibly were not geniuses at the same time as angels and aces - they did their best and fought to the death. Obviously Polish pilots wrere MUCH, MUCH better - and so honest and objective including in their hundreds of victory claims won flying aircraft which were able to fly only thanks to repairs performed with tape and strings and with stones as ammunition. Engine fuel for the Poles was water (big improvement as compared to the hundreds of gallons of alcohol they used to drink) and they even had to ride French cows because the naughty French would not give them any aircraft, not even some made of paper and glue. At least cow-milk could be used as aviation fuel in French engines.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Grozibou

As you can see all this vicious anti-French propaganda, libelling and insulting is devoid of any justification.

After reading this I'm surprised that you come up with the following text, which is at the least just as offensive.

Admittedly all French pilots (who were well-trained) possibly were not geniuses at the same time as angels and aces - they did their best and fought to the death. Obviously Polish pilots wrere MUCH, MUCH better - and so honest and objective including in their hundreds of victory claims won flying aircraft which were able to fly only thanks to repairs performed with tape and strings and with stones as ammunition. Engine fuel for the Poles was water (big improvement as compared to the hundreds of gallons of alcohol they used to drink) and they even had to ride French cows because the naughty French would not give them any aircraft, not even some made of paper and glue. At least cow-milk could be used as aviation fuel in French engines.

I must say that I am disappointed, this cannot lead to anything constructive and therefor I will close the tread.