Battle of Britain Bf109E found in India a few years ago?

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

I'm sorry to disillusion you but the United Nations has just criticised the UK over its restrictions on freedom of expression. One of those issues is "libel tourism", the principle that if someone in the UK saw the book/article etc. (no matter where it was published) then the publisher/author can be sued in the UK courts. British libel laws are heavily repressive.

See this newspaper article.

So British law claims the right to expand its jurisdiction over third countries with their own law? Interesting! I will check this, and notify Polish authorities, even because of pure curiousity!

[Ruy Horta]

Yellow 8 I don't contest, but Black 6 and White 6 may haven been only White 6 with a black outline, sprayed in 2 phases (Black base, white top). Same thing could be happening with the 5, but its less clear.

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

Yellow 8 I don't contest, but Black 6 and White 6 may haven been only White 6 with a black outline, sprayed in 2 phases (Black base, white top). Same thing could be happening with the 5, but its less clear.

You may well be correct. This is not my prime sphere of expertise.

PeterA

[Andy Saunders]

Peter

And there we all were, on the edge of our seats, thinking that since you now knew all there was ever to know about Spitfires you had moved into a new area!

Can you recognise a 109 reservoir tank or control column internal gun firing mechanism yet?! :-)

[Larry Hickey]

Peter,

Great photo Peter! Simply the best!!

This aircraft is listed as down on November 2nd as "Black 6," which is obviously one of the numbers that were on there. Is it possible to interpret the "Black 6" layer (or two layers of the same number as Ruy suggests) as being on top, rather than second under the "5"? I haven't studied this that carefully, but that looks like a possible interpretation. Whoever sanded down through the layers would know best what this was (and maybe is the source of your listed interpretation). I note that both the German report of the loss (Prien JFV 4/II, P. 273, lists this as Black 6), and the British crash (G) report ("markings black 6+1 all in black outlined white") indicates that the final marking should be a "Black 6" with a thin white outline. Although I have photos of two previous forced-landed "Black 6s" of 8./JG53 during 1940 in my DB, I don't have any photos of this particular a/c down "in situ," or during the transfer or at the time of its arrival in India. However, I'm sure that some were made at the time by the local press of this "gift" from Britain, or shortly thereafter if the aircraft was subsequently put on public display. Is anyone aware of the existence of any contemporary photos of this bird? That would probably immediately settle this issue.

Thanks to all for your comments and information. Most informative and helpful.

Regards,

[Nick Beale]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

So British law claims the right to expand its jurisdiction over third countries with their own law? Interesting! I will check this, and notify Polish authorities, even because of pure curiousity!

I know. Bloody ridiculous, isn't it? But then again, those poor lawyers need the money … and of course the rich and powerful must be protected from the rest of us.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

I know. Bloody ridiculous, isn't it? But then again, those poor lawyers need the money … and of course the rich and powerful must be protected from the rest of us.

I am curious on how they are enforcing the law on foreign subjects. Anyway, I will ask around, what is lawyers' opinion about it, and then I will put a formal request to authorities to clear the situation. It is fairly easy, but it will take a couple of months I am afraid. In any case, Ruy should verify this from his side as well, otherwise we cannot exclude someone will sue the site eg. for writing about overclaim of a famous ace!

Originally Posted by Nick Beale

But then again, those poor lawyers need the money … and of course the rich and powerful must be protected from the rest of us.

- I couldn't agree more with both remarks. Now those poor British lawyers are going to sue both you and me in two different countries.

[Andy Saunders]

Larry

I don't know if it can be seen on any of Peter's photo but there was also a curious red disc with a white outline aft of the cross on at least one (possibly both) sides of the fuselage. It was there when the aeroplane was first photographed in India a few years back. I cannot fathom out what it might have been. It was almost like the centre of an RAF roundel.

As you say, there must be photos of the aircraft either at crash site or in India (latter more likely!) from the period. I have the original salvage report on the aeroplane from 49 MU.

The blanked off quarter panel (front r/h of front screen canopy assy) puzzles me, although I found this image which, if one looks through the open cockpit, it seems this aircraft is similarly fitted. I cannot make out what is going on with the cowling intake on port side in this picture, either, or that it SEEMS to have no gun troughs and neither have radio masts.

Another odd feature is the inscription on rear fuselage (port side) that appears in one of the pictures on this thread. It seems to give details of a flying school, a town/airfield location that I cannot make out, and a telephone number. Presumably this must have been under the fuselage paintwork and is now showing through?

Andy

[Larry Hickey]

Andy,

The "odd" inscription on this aircraft was one put on some aircraft back in 1939, before the war, giving a location and telephone number of the home base in case the aircraft was forced down somewhere. This makes me think that this plane was in the inventory a long time and was possibly damaged earlier in the war and repaired, before reissue to 2./JG53. This is further reinforced by the info on the red dot or solid circle, with a thin white outline. This was carried on a/c of 2./JG77 back before and during the days of the PC, IIR. You'll see examples of this in Prien's JFV#1 or 2 for that unit, again, indicating that this aircraft had a long operational history before being shot down.

There are no photos in either the full Prien (including photos not in his books) or the Cornwell collections of this aircraft for the period in which it what shot down.

Does the MU report give any markings or insignia details?

Regards,