May 14th 1940 and few little things

[Juha]

Hello Ruy
I highed the percentage because a) it isn't uncommon that surviving historical records are somewhat biased.
b) because war was/is unnatural enviroment to man of 20th and 21st century and in at least almost all armies and wars SNAFU is a common phenomenon there always has been certain amount of critisism towards how the war was conducted. More so because errors cost lives not only money and IMHO there are no error free organizations.

Juha

[Franek Grabowski]

I am simply in no position to undertake a serious study of all incidents that occurred in 1940. The thing that you expect from me is to spend several hours on books, and I cannot do that at the moment. You will find quite a good summary in the book The Lost Hopes that covers operations of Polish fighters during the campaign. It is bilingual, Polish and English. This will not give you a complete picture, but at least part of the picture.
As to laziness, if you consider that fuzzy, those were situations like: we will not put flight at stand by at dawn, because it will make men tired, we will not camouflage aircraft, we will not dig trenches because no bombs are going to fall with our defences, we will not connect you to the early warning system, we will not provide you with necessary equipment because it is here to be stored and not to be used by you, we are not going to allow you to fly defence patrols of this place, it is not our problem the early warning system does not work, etc.

[Ruy Horta]

Not meant as an insult, but wasn't there anything these Polish airmen didn't know better or at best agreed with?

(how familiar, must be endemic... )

It does surprise me that there isn't a single mentioning of the fact that they were grateful for being given a second chance to fight the germans in a fighter aircraft (how did these types compare with the Polish front line fighters of '39?).

Those who survived France got a third chance in Britain, where they probably didn't agree with everything they encountered either, but were save from the Wehrmacht and a quick defeat, hence having less to criticise at the end.

Birgir's post was very enlightening, thanks for filling in some gaps in our one sided picture.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

Not meant as an insult, but wasn't there anything these Polish airmen didn't know better or at best agreed with?

I think that many were just impressed with the British organisation. Also, after initial snags, they had the feeling that their experience will be used properly. Ant there are indeed some comments like we should learn this or that.

It does surprise me that there isn't a single mentioning of the fact that they grateful for being given a second chance to fight the germans in a fighter aircraft (how did these types compare with the Polish front line fighters of '39?).

Well, they could have been angry that they did not receive promised French aircraft, that there was no French offensive on Germany, that French aircraft did not attack Berlin, etc. Actually, their journey to France was a part of mutual agreements, and I am surprised, why they should have seen that in other way?

Those who survived France got a third chance in Britain, where they probably didn't agree with everything they encountered either, but were save from the Wehrmacht and a quick defeat, hence having less to criticise at the end.

Well, if you ever read Polish memories, you will find comments in kind it is all other way than in France, at last, etc. There were some tensions, there were some complaints, but nothing that could be considered as general as in France in 1940. Here, we can really talk about no generalisation.

[arnaud]

Fairey Battle of 142 Sqn shot down by french pilots on the 14th May 1940 : someone said that Mr Lorant has evidence to say that this is not true !

What evidence ?

[Petitpoucet]

Originally Posted by arnaud

Fairey Battle of 142 Sqn shot down by french pilots on the 14th May 1940 : someone said that Mr Lorant has evidence to say that this is not true !

What evidence ?

Mr Gillet,

Time has passed since i wrote it, and i must correct it. The original sources were not found by Mr Lorant but by Many Souffan.

Sorry for this little mistake, but i'm sure that this evidences do exist. And in fact, i cannot believe that nine different french pilots identified Fairey Battles as Henschel 126s and repeated the same error four times.

Regards

[Stig Jarlevik]

Petitpoucet

Good and well, but could you or anyone else please state what the individual Souffan DID find? Since nobody else during all these years have managed to find out what the French actually shot at, I am very interested to know, and so are probably a whole lot of other persons.

Cheers
Stig

[Petitpoucet]

Hi,

He found the losses that match, at the exact time of the french claims. He's writing an article on it, and i cannot say more here. Sorry.

[Bernard]

Good afternoon to all,

What a thread !

I have now been searching about RAF history in the Battle of France for quite a long time now, and am still on it for quite a long time I think. I have been through many documents, and I just want to give my opinion about the "No 142 Squadron Battles affair".

On the 14th of may 1940, No 142 Squadron lost four Battles: K9333, L5517, P2246 and P2333 between 1500 and 1600.

K9333 3 crews returned to their unit.
L5517 crews were all killed.
P2246 3 crews returned to their unit.
P2333 1 crew returned to his squadron, 2 other crews were killed.

7 crews returned to their unit !

I think that if these four Battles had been shot down by French fighters, we all would very clearly know it now !

Don' t you?

Very best regards.

Bernard.

[Many Souffan]

Hello Guys

I go out from my cavern of silence to explain some little things.

I was very pleased when in 2003 the first opus of the: Victoires de l'aviation de chasse française of Arnaud Gillet was printed out. The search was serious maybe to serious because the reading was little hermetic. But it a good thing that book exist...

I was very surprised to read in this book for the 14th may that some French pilots made 4 mistakes in less 25 minutes to shot 4 Battle that they supposed to be 4 Hs 126.

As I worked ( and I work always) about "Cobber" Kain, "Fanny" Orton (73 Sqn.) and the great Jean Demozay (interpreter at this moment to 1 Sqn) I was very close to the AASF and in particular 67 Wing. So for me, it was normal to call to the author to congratulate for his search and to tell him that I had some documents about this affair...


At the phone, the man was so sure of him, so vain, because he knew a german general , Arnaud did not even ask me for my proofs, I was nothing for him. I stayed some seconds with the telephone in the hand before understanding that he had already hung up...

When the last year I bought the battle of France then & now of Peter Cornwall, I have read the same mistake... unfortunatly.

The first thing to say I have always the proofs.

2/ it was really 4 Hs 126

3/ As said Bernard, that the 4 Battle were shot down between 15.00 & 16.00, the 4 Hs 126 between 12.54 & 13.25

4/ How it can possible for 7 or 8 french pilots to make a so big mistakes an 4 times between Battle and Hs 126

5/ and the best of the best the infos between germans reports and French reports incredible; it the same hour, the same place.

6/ Don't forget some of the units of the Hs 126 were attached to the Heeres and their losses were with them.

My next post I will give the proofs.

Thank you very much and sorry for my bad English.