May 14th 1940 and few little things

[Petitpoucet]

Thanks Robert for your nice message, and Thanks Juha for your kind remark. So, "detached in ground units" could be better.

Franek, i think it will take me more time to answer to you. But i think the discussion can be interesting.

First of all, in France, do you know that every pilots who fired an ennemy aircraft before it felt was credited with a complete victory ? For example, with the poor 7,5mm guns on their Curtisses, they were often a lot to destroy a Henshel 126 or a Heinkel 111.
Second point : i can understand that a pilot could be disappointed when one of his claim was not confirmed. But to say that french officers stole victories obtained by polish pilots, i think it is just a nonsense.
I studied a lot of reports, they are clear, and i never read or heard about something like that.
Could you give me some dates, some facts ? You have a lot of them as i can undestand.

About Villacoublay, and many other cases : just remember one word in France in june 1940 : disorder. I just tried to explain what happened in Villacoublay, but now, i don't really undestand what you want to tell me.

"They were not many polish aces..."
You're right. there were much czech aces because they joined groups equipped with better aircrafts (H-75, for example). On may 10th 1940, there were only four groups equipped with Curtisses, and the first one with new D.520 was operationnal two days later.
So, many Polish pilots used bad aircarfts (Caudron 714, MS 406) because they were the only ones available, but obtained many victories.
Many of them would become aces in the RAF where Hurricanes and Spitfires were available.

Laskiewicz joined a new formed group, the GC III/2, leaded by a great man, Cdt Geille, but he was not a great fighter pilot. The officers who leaded the two squadrons were not the best examples, but the group had great sub-officers. So i think i was not an anti-french propaganda, but the critiscim of his own group, and its commanding officers.

Hope i answered to all your questions,

Lionel

[David Sumerauer]

Hello all,
I can only add that in Czech literature there are signs that some Czechoslovak pilots attached mostly to Morane equipped squadrons were highly critical primarily to the French higher command and even Czech higher officers (non-flying). The criticism was oriented mostly to bad equipment, bad servicing of machines and even the very bad social status of pilots who were attached to the Foreign Legion during training at the beginning of the war.
(this statement is supported by many first hand accounts from diaries of Svatopluk Janouch GC I/6, Stanislav Fejfar GC I/6, Sgt. Otto Hanzlicek GC II/5, Vaclav Cukr II/3 and others).

Some of pilots (namely Lts.- Janouch and Fejfar) were critical to their French comrades as well mostly for lack of discipline and co-operation during air battles which caused preventable losses. (S. Fejfar was killed himself on the May 17, 1942 when he deliberately departed from his squadron with his wingman and theirs Spitfires were bounced by Fw–190).

Generally speaking I thing that the French fighters fought with great skill, courage and determination which is supported by many confirmed victories at one side and sustained serious losses on the other side. The same applies for Czechs (and other Allied pilots)

What I found interesting is a high number of combat missions and hours flown by the pilots during Battle of France period. Is it known who were the pilots with highest numbers of missions?

Kind Regards. David

[Franek Grabowski]

Lionel

Originally Posted by Petitpoucet

Franek, i think it will take me more time to answer to you. But i think the discussion can be interesting.

As long as it will not be emotional.

First of all, in France, do you know that every pilots who fired an ennemy aircraft before it felt was credited with a complete victory ?

Yes, though I think the system was not introduced consistently, as it seems sometimes just every pilot in patrol was credited and sometimes not.

For example, with the poor 7,5mm guns on their Curtisses, they were often a lot to destroy a Henshel 126 or a Heinkel 111.

I do not think that 7,9 MGs fared any better, and actually most of the Battle of Britain kills were shared ones, but this is not the point.

Second point : i can understand that a pilot could be disappointed when one of his claim was not confirmed. But to say that french officers stole victories obtained by polish pilots, i think it is just a nonsense.

I agree it is strange or weird, but this is what was actually stated by some pilots.

I studied a lot of reports, they are clear, and i never read or heard about something like that.
Could you give me some dates, some facts ? You have a lot of them as i can undestand.

Not a lot, as there was not a lot of victories. One of them was already mentioned and it was Karubin's kill on 3 June over Etampes, that, according to another airman, was credited to a French pilot instead.

About Villacoublay, and many other cases : just remember one word in France in june 1940 : disorder. I just tried to explain what happened in Villacoublay, but now, i don't really undestand what you want to tell me.

I just wanted to say, that similar accounts to the one of Villa, can be found in various memories. In general they describe a total lack of moral fibre across the French armed forces. On the other hand, there are some stories of elderly French people, who expressed to Poles their sorrow for such a behaviour of French army.

You're right. there were much czech aces because they joined groups equipped with better aircrafts (H-75, for example). On may 10th 1940, there were only four groups equipped with Curtisses, and the first one with new D.520 was operationnal two days later.
So, many Polish pilots used bad aircarfts (Caudron 714, MS 406) because they were the only ones available, but obtained many victories.

I think Poles were just too late to join the fight in any strength. There was a lot of time lost for various discussions, and attempts to make any acceptable agreement. There was also a lot of distrust on the French side.

Many of them would become aces in the RAF where Hurricanes and Spitfires were available.

Indeed, but the situation was different.

Laskiewicz joined a new formed group, the GC III/2, leaded by a great man, Cdt Geille, but he was not a great fighter pilot.

Łaszkiewicz considered Geille just too old for the modern conflict. He regarded him as a man, but considered just a man on the wrong position.

The officers who leaded the two squadrons were not the best examples, but the group had great sub-officers. So i think i was not an anti-french propaganda, but the critiscim of his own group, and its commanding officers.

Well, this more-less fits with statements of Łaszkiewicz. If I recall correctly, he had a high esteem for such young pilots like Lansoy, and considered them the people who should take the lead. He could not understand, for example, that the pilots slept long, then had a breakfast, then a little rest and only then they were ready for flying. Then lunch break, and then the dinner with a lot of wine. Łaszkiewicz was just amazed, that the unit worked picnic-like. Otherwise he was quite critical about general approach to combat (lack of proper training), and quality of groundcrew, as well as some pilots. It seems Corniglione and his crew were considered especially bad, but this possibly to the fact, Corniglione took his aircraft, in exchange of overheated one.
The visit of Fonck was another matter, and general situation of French aviation was discussed. I cannot find it at the moment, but I will give you an exact date.