May 14th 1940 and few little things

[arnaud]

Dear Mr Many Souffan,

I thank you very much for those informations. I deeply regret you haven't seen those originals documents giving details of Henschel 126 losses on 14th May 1940. You don't know neither references of those documents... What a pity ?

But I am still looking for those originals documents until I have them in hands. You said that there are in Bundesarchiv... Well... Don't worry, those documents are publics and free to be seen... I don't understand your fear :

"I don’t know the references, because the German searcher who had given to me these infos wanted to stay anonymous, but his work is known, his names is on the cover on some best sellers that everyone know. When he began this work, there was the Berlin wall yet. So I respect what he asks to me to not give his name."

The Berlin wall fell 20 years ago. So all those people in Germany are now free to speak... I am sure this historian will be pleased to help me in my researches. He could be also a friend...

I repeat. Those documents stored in Bundesarchiv are frees, publics. There is no secret... Everyone could go to Bundesarchiv to have a look on every document... If this historian want to be still anonymous after all those years. Well... I don't understand that... But here we are ! What a big deal... But ask him references, I will go to Freiburg right away to visit the Bundesarchiv...

Is this historian M. Heinrich Weiss who sadly died some years ago ?

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

[Many Souffan]

Dear Mr Arnaud Gillet

Why are you so angry? With all respects I have for you, you seem’s to me, like a child who make a caprice, because he doesn’t have his toys… Sorry, “originals documents giving details of Henschel 126 losses on 14th May 1940”

Firstly, the “original documents” are and will stay always in the Bundesarchiv. I have only a copy with synthetic infos, because a Serious German Searcher spent a lot of time for him and he accepted friendly to give me some infos, not all, when I will publish them, I will give only his name…

Secondly I fear nothing… I remember, the motto of RAF 501Sqn. But more seriously, why I should be afraid? I am sure of my sources, German, British, and French.
Mr Arnaud Gillet, Why your 3 books are published since a long time now, but you didn’t give your sources. Now you write on this forum of gentlemen, Please, give us simply your sources… We wait for them.

Thirdly, why you speak always those documents are public and free? Here we don’t speak about money, but about the respect of a searcher, a lone wolf searcher who spent so much time, we speak here, the vivid memories of German, French, and British pilots and what they did.

The Berlin wall fell 20 years ago. So all those people in Germany are now free to speak... I am sure this historian will be pleased to help me in my researches. He could be also a friend...

Well I don’t know, if it possible to be a friend with you, why not? It is a question of feeling, a question of private choice, a question of trust, of confidence, a question of free will… I like no, I love to write, I know also, because I am by nature suspicious, to read between lines. I am sorry Ruy, that you don’t know the little nuances of the French language. If you knew, you should have a new dimension of the writings of Mr Arnaud Gillet against me.

It would be easy to stay in my cavern of silence without answering to Mr Arnaud Gillet, but I prefer to have a confrontation not a clash, to share my knowledge, to give him the light of the truth, maybe Mr Arnaud will show after that he had taken a wrong way.

Now, I would like to help you, you know of course that 7 men of the 4 Battle of 142 Sqn. shot on this day of 14th may came back among them heavily wounded S/L Hobler. This is what he said…

“As we approached the target our section of two was attacked by five Me 109, coming along in line astern, to get some practice in on us. I had Sergeant Kitto as my observer and Corporal Barbrooke as gunner. We had worked out that we would use the upside-down VGO gun if possible, so Kitto got down on the floor, telling me where the enemies were coming from. I would have liked to have turned into them and used my front gun but these two VGO guns were very fast firing and we really thought we could do something with them.
As the 109s came in and attacked us, I was weaving away and could feel bullets striking our aircraft and felt glad that armour plate had been fitted to our positions, because this plate must have stopped a lot of projectiles from getting at us. It added to the weight of the Battle but we survived.
Kitto shouted that he'd got one of the b… Huns and I'm not sure we didn't damage another one. I'm sure we did and I know we got one. The 109s kept up their attack and shot us to pieces. I could feel the controls begin to go limp and all I could do was to try and hold the aircraft up, for we were so low there didn't seem much point in trying to get out by parachute at that stage.
Down below us were the German infantry advancing in personnel carriers, and as we got nearer to the ground, we could feel ground fire attacking us. Our glycol tank was blowing hot glycol all over me and I couldn't see a hell of a lot but I could see what I wanted to do. I was hoping to guide the aircraft between a couple of trees, so that we would more or less land evenly. But while doing this, I was aware that fire from the ground, very quick firing guns, were slowly cutting my instrument panel away before my very eyes. In other words, they were keeping pace with the aircraft as we glided down out of control and just cutting away the entire instrument panel. It was a most weird feeling, extraordinary experience. A couple of inches back and they would have been into me, but they were just cutting away at the panel. Really quite remarkable.
This went on as we came down towards the two trees and I managed somehow to put the nose of the aircraft somewhere in the middle of them. As we hit, the trees folded the wings back, stopping our descent and averting what would have been a bald, Flat-out crash. So we slithered onto the ground in that manner, very undignified, with the Germans not very far away and heading towards us like mad…”
He said 109 no 406

I have another story of a pilot of 142 Sqn who came back from this mission, Sergeant Arthur “dagger” Spear, he was almost able to come back with his “kite” but he can’t with the battle so damaged, he got the DFM. This is the citation :“In May, 1940 this airman was engaged in bombing operations against enemy and after successfully dropping his bombs, he was attacked by a number of Messerschmitt, the tail of his aircraft being shot away. He ordered his crew to abandon the aircraft and was thrown out whilst preparing to jump, but he landed by parachute in enemy territory. He was repeatedly under enemy fire but, securing a horse, he succeeded by sheer determination in overcoming many difficulties, including the swimming of a canal, and later returned safely to his unit”
It is written Messerschmitt not Morane.

Thank you.

[arnaud]

Dear Mr Many Soufflan,

I do not want to discuss about the combat. I need 30 pages to describe it in a book to be published this year. I will also publish a testimony of a German officer who has seen this air combat between Morane 406 in the middle of the Fairey Battle. I have not one single doubt.

Those french fighter did shot down those Fairey Battle of No 142 Squadron.

So here is the same question : Henschel 126 shot down by french pilots on the 14th May 1940 :

What evidence ?

Would you be kind enough to give :
1. the references of those Henschel 126 losses stored in Bundesarchiv or
2. give the copy of the original documents or
3. the name of the historian you mention ?

Your silence is not a problem because the Henschel 126 you mention are not those shot down by GC III/7... But to complete my researches, I just need to see the list you mention. You gave this list to french newspapers and historians who have published your informations without any evidence...

A serious historian gives their sources... if not this is doubtful... I am so sorry but I don't believe you at all until I see your documents you mention. I am sure they do not exist as you write it. I am also sure you have changed some data to match with GC III/7 claims...

Please say that I am wrong, but give those documents... I promise then I will shut up... PROMISE...

Yours sincerely

Arnaud Gillet

[Stig Jarlevik]

Dear Many

It's been a hectic week, so I am sorry for this late answer. I'm afraid I do not understand everything you say as much as I would like to, but if I have understood you correctly, you have received a copy of some document located by a former East German citizen possibly in Germany or perhaps somewhere else in the former Soviet Empire. The document itself is not a Luftwaffe document but a document relating to the German Army (Heer). You are still unable to either disclose the Gentlemans name or the document itself because of your promise to said person. But at some later stage when you publish your own work all will be revealed, at least the name of your source.

All I now need to know if you are able to read the documents diary number? If you do perhaps you can reveal that as well in your forthcoming publication. May I ask what it's title would be?

Cheers
Stig

[Many Souffan]

Hello Stig.

At the time where I received his letter, he was bavarian, but he said that he had the opportunity to see some materials of the Whermacht which were some times in east of Berlin. It is a long time ago for me But I am sure these documents are in Freiburg now... but don't forget What I already said these units of the Luftwaffe were attached to the Heer and the losses are with Heer documents

You will know the name of this searcher soon... a very serious searcher.

Thank you.

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Many

May I again ask for the title of your publication?

Cheers
Stig

[Many Souffan]

Hello Gentlemen

In a previous post Mr Gillet has written in French ( I will translate after):

Nous avons interrogé les auteurs. Roger Pierre n’a pas répondu. La revue Avions nous renvoie à Many Soufflan qui refuse de communiquer ses sources… !?!... !?!... !?!...

We questioned the authors. Roger Pierre did not answer. The Avions Magazine sends back to us to Many Soufflan who refuses to communicate his sources!?!!?!!?!...

Mr Pierre Roger is an excellent historian who live near Sedan and he has written with his wife 2 books very serious about the air war over sedan at the beginning of Campaign of France. As Mr Gillet has written his name I tried to find him and I Did. He just send me this email that I tried to translate for you with my bad English. Sorry.


M. Souffan. je viens de prendre connaissance des propos de M. Gillet Arnaud concernant les pertes de Hs126 sur le secteur de Vendresse. Voici ma réponse que vous pouvez faire savoir aux internautes:

a) La source est d'origine allemande, écrite en allemand, et n'a rien d'obscur.
b) Cet historien et chercheur allemand est connu pour le sérieux de ses recherches et l'accès qu'il peut avoir à certains documents souvent difficiles à trouver.
c) Cela a été un grand honneur pour mon épouse et moi-même qu'il accepte de nous aider dans cette quête
d) Lorsque j'entretenais des rapports encore dignes de confiance avec M. Arnaud Gillet j'ai accepté un après-midi, en me libérant auprès de mes patients, de le conduire sur le lieu de crash du Bloch 152 de l'Adj/C Munier, aux ''Woieries'', commune de Monthermé. A cette occasion, je lui ai présenté ce document. IL L'A EU EN MAINS. Ceci étant il m'a dit que c'était impossible et n'a même pas accepté que je lui en fasse une copie. Il s'étonnait même que ce chercheur ait trouvé cela et se demandait d''Où il l'avait sortie?''
Il semblerait que la mémoire de M.Gillet lui fasse défaut, ou qu'elle soit très sélective.

Maintenant, que cette liste de Hs126 est intéressante. C'est dommage !
Conclusion: Je n'aime pas trop que l'on me prenne pour certaine chose.

L'arrogance de M. Gillet a du mal à faire bon ménage avec la recherche historique. (Lui qui clamait que M. Roger ne racontait que des con.....!). Il faudra qu'il apprenne que nous faisons tous des erreurs, même lui, et que nul n'a le monopole de la connaissance historique définitive.

Merci aux lecteurs de cette petite réponse, un peu écrite sur le vif, d'avoir pris en compte mon point de vue
Cordialement
Pierre ROGER

Mr Souffan I have just acquainted with the comments of Mr. Gillet Arnaud concerning the losses of Hs126 on the sector of Vendresse. Here is my answer which you can let know to the Internet users:
A) The source is of German origin, written in German, and has nothing dark.
B) This historian and German researcher is known for the seriousness of his researches and the access which he can have to some documents often difficult to find.
C) It was a great honor for my wife and myself whom he agrees to help us in this quest
D) When I maintained still reliable connections with Mr. Arnaud Gillet I agreed the afternoon, by freeing me with my patients, to drive him on the place of crash of Bloch 152 of Adj/C Munier, in "Woieries", village of Monthermé.
In this occasion, I presented him this document. HE HAD It IN HANDS. Being this that said to me that it was impossible and did not even accept that I made him a copy. He wondered what is more this researcher found it and wondered "where he had taken out it ? "
It would seem that the memory of Mr Gillet was lacking to him, or that it is very selective.
Now, that this list of Hs126 is interesting. What a pity!
Conclusion: I do not like too much that he take me for someone I am not.
Mr Gillet's arrogance has difficulty in making good connection with the historic search. (He, who cried out that Mr Roger told only bullshit!). He will have to learn that we make all errors, even himself, and that nobody has the monopoly of the definitive historic knowledge. Thanks to the readers which take time for this small answer, a little written on sharp, to have taken into account my point of view Cordially

Thank you.
Pierre Roger

Ps Mr Gillet I will answer to you last Post.

[Many Souffan]

It will be in Avions Magazine.

[arnaud]

To all internautes…

Of course. I apologise… I was fighting for weeks to get those documents that I had already seen. This is so logic…

All my messages had only one goal : I wanted to get a copy of those documents to complete my researches on this sad air combat…

Now we are going nowhere except to hell… : messages getting more and more aggressive.

But be sure that I have nothing against Mr Roger Pierre or Mr Many Souffan. I am not angry at all. I am not that kind of person. In fact I like the way they fight for their idea… This is great and I will always encourage this. I love our liberty. This forum is perfect. Anybody could speak freely…

But now this is time to leave because I am sure I won’t get any answer… I regret it. I thought this forum would help me.

Anyway the truth will be published soon in French and in English in memory of those airmen killed in action on that 14th May 1940 by French fighters of GC III/7…

Yours sincerely


Arnaud Gillet

FRANCE

[Peter Cornwell]

I have been following this thread with interest in the hope that it might throw further light on the exact circumstances of the losses to No.142 Squadron on May 14, 1940. Regretably, however, it now seems increasingly unlikely that any valid evidence of historical value is going to result. So my own view, for what it is worth - but it has been sought, and in the absence of any substantive evidence to the contrary, must remain as stated in The Battle of France Then & Now.

Improbable as it no doubt is, Arnaud Gillet’s assertion that the losses were a result of mistaken attacks by GC III/7 does, at least, equate to currently available documentary evidence particularly with regard to the times and location of Allied claims and German losses. That was my judgement when, (with some reservation it has to be said), I accepted this view during preparation of my own work. If this be discredited as a result this is entirely my own doing.

So, while I remain impartial, I am favourably inclined towards the alternative scenario as described by Many Souffan, although this currently requires me to acknowledge the loss of six Hs126 not reported in the Lw General Quartermaster Returns*, and also accept four Fairey Battles shot down by Bf109Es that similarly went unrecorded in the OKL Fighter Claims. A version of events that seems equally implausible to that proffered by Arnaud Gillet.

*While any record-keeping system can be flawed, the suggestion that aircraft losses to Lw units detached or operating as subordinate to the Heer were not routinely reported through Lw channels in the normal manner is not the answer. It also ignores the fact that every one of the units cited submitted losses to the Genst.Gen.6.Abt. under the heading Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.H. between May 11 and May 19, 1940. Though none of these reported losses conform to the details quoted by Many Souffan.

Finally, whether Many Souffan is fully aware of its origins or not - for I know such information can circulate, Arnaud Gillet is probably close to the truth when he suggests the late Heinrich Weiss as a possible source for the intriguing list of (otherwise) unrecorded Hs126 losses on May 14, 1940. The Weiss narrative certainly contains this exact same information but, unfortunately, without comment as to his own original source. This ‘magic bullet’ therefore remains uncorroborated but I remain hopeful that we may yet arrive at the true facts of this matter.