Small B17 bomb bay and bomb load

[Jon]

Still waiting for an answer to the question !


Jon

[Jon]

Oh! and one other thing.

As you Canadians flew with us Brits i assume when you say British killing civilians...you mean WE were killing civilians. Not nice from a country that has never been on the wrong end of a bomb!

Tally ho!

[Smudger Smith]

Dear George & Vin,

I have taken an hour or so before I attempt to reply to your posts, I have had to read your posts a few time’s just to make sure I was not hallucinating

I have never heard such rubbish;

Bomber Command had no involvement in the disruption of the transport and railway networks in occupied Europe pre and post D-Day. ?

Bomber Command did not attack oil targets or war producing factories. ?

Bomber Command only attacked German cities killing “innocent” civilians. ?

Unbelievably naïve, and rather sad when one considers the magnificent contribution of the Canadian No.6 Group, RAF Bomber Command.

The contribution of the US 8th & 15th Airforce was without doubt massive and decisive; the destruction of the German fighter arm was in no small measure the result of the US Mustangs, Thunderbolts and Lightings. However you so casually belittle RAF Bomber Commands contribution. Both worked together towards victory, side by side sharing the same dangers. It’s rather unfortunate that people such as you wish to run-down the contribution of Bomber Command because it suits your political stance. I humbly suggest you read a number of books on RAF Bomber Command, yes the command made mistakes, and should have perhaps change it’s bombing policies sooner. That’s me being objective and rational, you both might want to try it.

Smudger

[Juha]

Smudger, I again agreed with You. I'm also puzzled with George's message.
George, BC was an active participant in transport plan before D-Day and it began again attack oil targets on night 12/13 June 1944 with a successful attack on Nordstern synthetic-oil plant in Gelsenkirchen. It should be mentioned in the Official History, Vol. IV, p. 322. My source is Middlebrook and Everitt's The Bomber Command War Diaries (ISBN 0-670-80137-2) p. 527.

Juha

[Laurent Rizzotti]

In France in 1944, raids by BC against railroads were both more efficient and less bloody for French civilians than raids by 8th and 15th AF. So the distinction between USAAF precision bombing and BC area bombing seems not so serious to me.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Laurent Rizzotti

In France in 1944, raids by BC against railroads were both more efficient and less bloody for French civilians than raids by 8th and 15th AF.

That may have been true about rail lines, but not in general.

For example, in July 1944 the RAF area bombed Caen in front of the British Army which was stalled outside the city. The Bomber Command raid was completely unnecessary, doing more to help the German Army than damage them. Very few German troops were inside Caen and many French civilians were killed by the bombs. Later, some of the bombing survey teams discovered that the British Army advance was actually delayed more by the huge bomb craters and piles of rubble that blocked their path through the city.

[Ruy Horta]

Note that as a moderator I must point out at this stage that only an objective discussion can be allowed to continue, once this becomes an emotional dispute I will have to close it down.

Hopefully we can all continue without reaching that point since the subject is an interesting one.

[Kutscha]

Originally Posted by Six Nifty .50s

That may have been true about rail lines, but not in general.

For example, in July 1944 the RAF area bombed Caen in front of the British Army which was stalled outside the city. The Bomber Command raid was completely unnecessary, doing more to help the German Army than damage them. Very few German troops were inside Caen and many French civilians were killed by the bombs. Later, some of the bombing survey teams discovered that the British Army advance was actually delayed more by the huge bomb craters and piles of rubble that blocked their path through the city.

The bombing of Caen was a tactical mission, though as you say it was more of a hinderance than a help. The 8th AF also did some tactical bombing in Normandy, even killing some of their own troops, included a general.

[Laurent Rizzotti]

Originally Posted by Six Nifty .50s

That may have been true about rail lines, but not in general.

For example, in July 1944 the RAF area bombed Caen in front of the British Army which was stalled outside the city. The Bomber Command raid was completely unnecessary, doing more to help the German Army than damage them. Very few German troops were inside Caen and many French civilians were killed by the bombs. Later, some of the bombing survey teams discovered that the British Army advance was actually delayed more by the huge bomb craters and piles of rubble that blocked their path through the city.

Yes, the support of ground troops by heavy bombers in WWII often proved to help more the other side. But once more if you compare both RAF and USAAF involvment in such missions, you will see that both air forces failed in this achievement, both either hitting their own troops or missing enemy troops and creating rubble that helped them later.

Probably the worst idea ever by Allied bomber commanders was the decision to bomb Normandy cities to create roadblocks with their rubble on D-day and the days after. British and American raids killed thousands of French civilians in two days and German reports showed that their troops were almost not delayed at all. Fighter-bombers were far more useful to delay them and far more precise.

I think both air forces have in common to have seen their original conceptions fail. But both changed and their efficiency increased during the war. My own opinion is that bombing results of the RAF were most efficient at any time than USAAF. But the main contribution of the 8th AF still IMHO is to have defeated the German Luftwaffe in the air, killing thousands of German fighter pilots in 1944 and thus winning air superiority over Europe.
Even if both airforces became more and more powerful and precise during the war, German production increased in 1944. Only when both airforces targetted together the oil factories had they a decisive influence on the German war machine.

[Vinman]

Hello Jon,
Yes, I will answer your question. The B17 did not carry the same bomb load as the Lancaster. But, if you read my first post, you will find that on average, the Lancaster carried around 5000-6500 lbs per A/C and not the max that it was designed to do. Again, it depended on the range and type of target.
The point that I am trying to make is that on average, the Lancaster, Halifax, B17 and B24 were flying missions with more or less the same bomb loads.
Those three KEY EXAMPLES of RAF night raids that I posted, have the stats.
No one is trying to belittle Bomber Command, I certainly am not. The whole Allied contribution to the destruction of Europe, was a team effort.
However, one must admit, that the USAAF was a huge factor in winning the war.
Vinman.