Me 262 - 29-10-1944

[John Manrho]

The data on Kinsler you use and what 2nd TAF of Shores/Thomas uses is the info in the ORB. Timing is the essence of the story. We know Kinsler crashed near Sieringhoek (SW Bentheim). Lt. Schreiber landed with his parachute Waldseite (N Gildehaus). Both sites are only a few miles from each other. The crash of the Me 262 at Tubbergen was "around 12.00 hrs" according local witnesses.

The loss of F/O Kinsler of No. 411 Sqn was at approx. 12.40 hrs. The bellylanding of F/Lt. Wilkings of No. 4 Sqn (after engine failure) was at approx. 17.00 hrs. I further can't imagine that after a collision which causes a Me 262 to crash a Spitfire could continue to fly to Tilburg, make a bellylanding and then report as cause of crash "engine failure".

Based on the assumption that the Me 262 of Tubbergen was indeed Lt. Schreiber's 262, than the Spitfire of Kinsler is the best candidate. The best way to further investigate this is to establish the correct time of the collision. I don't think the logbook of Lt. Schreiber survived, so this might proove to be difficult.

John

[John Manrho]

I looked into this further and I think indeed TIME is the most important factor. If we can establish the exact tme of the collision, than we can investigate the best candidate for the Spitifre.

[Franek Grabowski]

I have checked losses of the day with a friend. It seems the recce Spit is the most likely candidate, and according to some papers, the pilot baled out of the downed aircraft.

[Jaap Woortman]

At Tuesday June 14th, 2005 I will be able to check the original ORB of 411 Sqn and hopefully also the Wing ORB of that period. If it contains any information about this crash of F/O Kinsler I will report it here.
Checking the ORB of no.4 sqn. will be a little bit more difficult because no.4 Sqn. was at October 29th, 1944 stationed at B.70 Deurne in Belgium and went to Gilze-Rijen at November 23rd, 1944.
But we will see what we can do and whom we can contact in Belgium.

Jaap

[Jaap Woortman]

As promised here the information from no.411 Sqn. ORB.

PRO Air 26/186 no.126 Wing. 29.10.44. Sheet 540.

F/L G.B.Mercer again took off a section dive-bombing a rail cutting three miles East of Burgsteinfurt. All the bombs were dropped on a train of ten cars just East od the target. The whole train and the railway went up with much debris about. The railway was well cut, and the train destroyed. Another train standing at Meteten was straffed of which a locomotive and two cars were damaged. F/O F.F.Kinsler (J.35977) di not return from this mission. He was last seen just after dropping his bombs dead on the target. He reported his aircraft on fire and was told to set course for base, it is thought possibly he baled out.



PRO Air 27/1804 no.411 R.C.A.F. sqn. 29-10-1944. Sheet 540.

Weather was suitable for flying and the Squadron did its first operational flying in nearly three weeks. This consisted of bombing trains and rail targets in Germany. Our first casualty A.383. in nearly three months was sustained when the engine of F/O T.F.Kinsler’s kite packed up (probably due to enemy flak). He was instructed tp bale out but confirmation of this being complied with is not available. He is reported as being “Missing-particulars unknown.”
Casualties for October, 1944: J.35977 F/O T/F.Kinsler, Missing on operations on 29.10.44



PRO Air 27/1804 no.411 R.C.A.F. sqn. 29-10-1944. Sheet 541.
PI498 F/O T.F.Kinsler Duty: Dive-Bombing Up: 1215 Down: Missing.
Three 500 and 6 250’s were dropped on a train of 10 cars just east of a rail cutting(original target) east of Burgsteinfurt. The whole train standing in Meteten was strafed. F/O Kinsler did not return from this mission. He was last seen just after dropping his bombs and reporting his a/c was on fire.


Remark from J.W.: In the report of an earlier mission at that day to a target in the same area, a fly-over 1 mile east of Burgsteinfurt, it was mentioned that a Jet Job was seen but was to far to identify. This mission took place between 1115 up and 1215 down.

[robert_schulte]

Originally Posted by Jaap Woortman

Another train standing at Meteten was straffed of which a locomotive and two cars were damaged. .......
The whole train standing in Meteten was strafed.

Meteten is actually Metelen, it is just a few miles from where I live

Robert

[Jaap Woortman]

When we compare the information of ORB 411 Sqn. with the claims of Lt.Schreiber of October 29th, 1944 we can come to the conclusion that it was not the Spitfire of F/O T.F.Kinsler which was rammed by the Me 262 of Lt.Schreiber. There is gap of 3 hours between the crash of Kinsler and the claim of Schreiber.

Claims of Lt.Schreiber mentioned in Tony Woods claimlist:
29. October 1944

JaFü II. Jagdkorps/Lw.Kdo. West:

29.10.44 Ltn. Alfred Schreiber 1./Kdo. Nowotny P-38 £ HS at 9.000 m. [Herford] 12.00 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

29.10.44 Ltn. Alfred Schreiber 1./Kdo. Nowotny Spitfire GO at 9.500 m. [Bramsche-Hopsten] time 15.25-40 Film C. 2027/II Anerk: Nr. -

[Jaap Woortman]

Dear Franek,

We are still looking for information about F/L D.C.Wilkins crash at October 29th, 1944. F/L D.C. Wilkins was the pilot of the Spitfire PR IX PL853 of no. 4 Sqn RAF. Some time ago you have said:

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

I have checked losses of the day with a friend. It seems the recce Spit is the most likely candidate, and according to some papers, the pilot baled out of the downed aircraft.

Could you explain or show us the papers who are saying that F/L D.C.Wilkins has baled out of his plane?

Jaap Woortman

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Jaap Woortman

Could you explain or show us the papers who are saying that F/L D.C.Wilkins has baled out of his plane?

I am afraid I cannot as I have not seen them.
I must ask my friend for the source but I suppose it could have been from aircraft card.

[Jaap Woortman]

Dear Franek,

If you could be so kind and ask your friend. It would help us a lot in cracking this tough nut. Specially when he could tell us where Wilkins bailed out of his Spitfire.

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

I am afraid I cannot as I have not seen them.
I must ask my friend for the source but I suppose it could have been from aircraft card.

Jaap