Subordinates' opinions of Hans Dortenmann;

[NickM]

Originally Posted by F19Gladiator

Hi Nick,
I've just re-read the book by fellow pilot Willi Heilmann, "Alert in The West" in which Dortenmann figures on many pages and in several air battles described.
I've found no remarks in the direction you indicate.

Like the comments based on Axel Urbankes's book ("Green Hearts. First in Combat With the Dora 9" in Engl. transl.) by 'Yogybär' he comes through as a very good and experienced fighter pilot and the relation to other pilots seems to be good.
He gives the impression of being a professional fighter pilot and unit leader and not a fanatic and rather despising higher Luftwaffe authority and hard core Nazis – “Der Dicke” and the OKL included.

Were did you get the impression he got the “Neck itch” chasing for a Knight's Cross? I quickly skimmed through “The JG 26 War Diary Vol 2”, Caldwell, Grub Street, 1988, and on p. 466 there is a remark:
“Oblt. Dortenmann was awarded his Knight’s Cross, to the joy and the probable relief of his 3rd Staffel pilots”

Is there any other reference supporting the view that he was chasing a Knight’s Cross?

The units he led suffered heavily, being vastly outnumbered in many air battles, but so were also other Staffeln in 1944/45 over the Western Front.
He gives me the impression of trying to achieve results but find no indication he is sacrificing his wingmen or Staffel members for a victory. From time to time rather being upset over the high losses inflicted on his unit because of the in his mind stupid decisions by the Lw headquarter staff handed down to unit level.

In the carnage in the West where a new pilot was lucky if he survived 10 missions I can imagine that some, or several, young pilots found it nerve-racking to be led into murderous air fights by their Staffel (later Gruppe) leader and taking terrible beatings day after day, concluding that the leader’s only motivation can have been a Knight’s Cross as it must have been obvious to all that at this point the war could never have been won by the Germans – So why keep on attacking until a sure death or injury came to you? Because the boss wanted a “Gong”!
I don’t know if that was the case – Only an alternative explanation and pure speculation from my end.

Cheers
Göran

F19: Yup it was the JG26 War Diary that gave me the impression that Dortenmann had the 'neck itch'--the line you quoted and a couple of others; and to tell the truth, I read the Heilmann book & Urbanke's Dora book & I never picked that up...I WAS actually curious as to where Caldwell got his info...mebbie, the survivors if III/JG54 said more to Don because he was'nt German? I recall some comments from Peter Crump RE: his time with III/JG54 that I hadn't heard elsewhere.....of course I could very well be totally wrong too!

nickm

[NickM]

***Bump****

[JägerMarty]

Originally Posted by advsmt

Sorry, could not resist posting a signed picture of Dortenmann. This one came from Obermaier - the one in his jagflieger book.

Brian

mmm, nice piece. Must re-read Green Hearts again over the christmas new year break

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by leonventer

Hi Nick,
Agreed, but here are a couple of resources that are worth considering:

• "Ikaros: Persönlichkeit und Wesen des deutschen Jagdfliegers im Zweiten Weltkrieg" by Paul Robert Skawran, 1969

• "Luftwaffe Efficiency & Promotion Reports, vols. 1 & 2" by French L. MacLean, 2007

Leon Venter

Leon,

How are these two titles in general?

Ikaros I've seen quoted from before, but the MacLean book is new to me.

[leonventer]

Ruy,

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

How are these two titles in general?

Ikaros I've seen quoted from before, but the MacLean book is new to me.

Skawran's "Ikaros" is a detailed study of the psychological and physical makeup of fighter pilots in general, and several Luftwaffe aces in particular. It's especially valuable because Skawran spent most of the war with Luftwaffe units, and he interviewed many of the men he describes.

The chapter headings and page counts are as follows:
1. The pilot in comparison with members of the other armed services (3 pages)
2. The personalities of fighter pilots in the First World War (4 pages)
3. The period between the two world wars and its influence on the emergent people (18 pages)
4. The fighter pilot types of the Second World War (78 pages)
5. The exhiliration of flying and fighting (6 pages)
6. A comparison of the fighter pilot types of the First and Second World Wars (36 pages)
7. The development of the fighter pilot (34 pages)
8. The living conditions of fighter pilots (10 pages)
9. The beliefs/values/motivations of fighter pilots (8 pages)
10. Ikaros (3 pages)
Bibliography
Name Index

Chapter 4 is the heart of the book, in which Skawran describes around 30 Luftwaffe aces in varying degrees of detail and categorizes them as follows:

• Die "Genialen"
• Die Kämpfer
  • Der Kraftvolle Kämpfer
  • Der sture Draufgänger
  • Der Führertyp
• Die stetigen Könner
  • Die Harmonisch-Kraftvollen
  • Die Kaczmareks
• Die "Sonnenvögel"
• Die Kindlich-Naiven
• Die ehrgeizig-feinnervigen Jäger
  • Die Intellektuellen und die Sensitiv-Vitalen
  • Die Schießer

(See http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?p=29485 for Skawran's description of Oesau.)


MacLean's contribution is not as significant as Skawran's, but it's useful because it highlights a primary document type that's been neglected, namely the Luftwaffe's personnel evaluation reports. You might consider getting his two-volume work if you're interested in:

• the criteria and documents that were involved in Luftwaffe evaluations
• the general nature and values of Luftwaffe pilots and unit commanders
• the specific qualities of the 113 covered men, and the attitudes and styles of their superiors

The reports provide interesting insights and they enable you to get a bit closer to the people and the times. For example, a great deal of importance was placed on appearance, social skills and manners, and most evaluations contain a variation of the statement: "He is firmly rooted in National Socialist ideology."

Regards,
Leon Venter

[matthias74]

I found Skawran's book to be very interesting, because it is one of the few books that touches on the subject of pilots' personalities.

However it left me with somewhat of an aftertaste, due to the typifications and classifications he does, and specially due to some of the terminology he uses.

Trying do correlate pilots' physique to their personalities, and to some extent to their "success potential", seems, well, "Third Reichish".

Nonetheless it is a valuable and interesting addition to anybody interested in the human aspect of the air war.

Matthias

[Dan O'Connell]

Is it available in English?

[leonventer]

Originally Posted by matthias74

Trying do correlate pilots' physique to their personalities, and to some extent to their "success potential", seems, well, "Third Reichish".

I agree that it's off-putting. Skawran makes an unreasonably strong correlation between the physical and psychological attributes of fighter pilots. His characterisations are simplistic and he's guilty of some gross stereotyping. There are also some conspicuous omissions in his coverage, e.g. he comments on the role of religion, but he says nothing about the extent of the pilots' adherence to Nazi ideology. This implies that he considers it to be either:

a) the same for all pilots, or
b) unimportant, or
c) taboo.

Whatever the reason for his silence, the book would have been more interesting and valuable if it had discussed this topic.

Nevertheless, as Matthias said, the book is worth reading because of Skawran's intimate familiarity with the pilots and the context in which they served.

Leon Venter

[FalkeEins]

Originally Posted by leonventer

he says nothing about the extent of the pilots' adherence to Nazi ideology.

..because at a certain level (ie a high ranking & decorated fighter pilot) it was a given surely?...

..I found the book worth looking at and certainly German authors tend to pick out anecdotes from it (Prien on Oesau, Kurowski on Marseille etc etc..)

but otherwise as a text on Luftwaffe fighter aces it is unreadable..

[kennethklee]

I'm a little late to the discussion but wanted to comment on this interesting topic. Somewhat fortuitously I just read Axel Urbanke's Green Hearts First in Combat with the Dora 9. As those who have read this fine book know, Urbanke interviewed many surviving members of III/JG 54 and JG 26 and cited extensively from Dortenmann's diary. Many of the surviving pilots comment favorably on Dortenmann and his abilities as a fighter pilot and a formation leader, and that he looked out for the pilots under his command. In fact, I did not recall reading any quotes that were less than favorable for Dortenmann. Although Dortenmann was an aggressive fighter pilot and did not hesitate to engage the enemy, the welfare of his men seemed to take priority. One pilot is quoted stating that Dortenmann never lost a wingman while scoring a victory. I did not recall any quotes from his pilots suggesting that Dortenmann had the neck itch for the Knight's Cross. A lively party is briefly described as occurring spontaneously when Dortenmann encountered some of his former pilots from IV/JG 26, suggesting Dortenmann was held in high regard by his pilots, which would be unlikely if Dortenmann put any ambitions for decorations and advancement ahead of his men. Since Dortenmann passed in 1973, no motive for hiding unfavorable facts or opinions should be present for any of Dortenmann's surviving contemporaries.

Dortenmann's diary quotes often describe his affinity for his pilots from IV/JG 26, and his regrets at leaving them when he transferred to I/JG 26. A fellow officer, Lt. Hans Prager, describes in detail the aftermath when his Fw 190D-9 was severely damaged by collision with a P-47 and that Dortenmann took charge of guiding Prager home to a safe landing; he provided radio advice and reassurance and checked out the landing field ahead of him. When Dortenmann finally received his Knight's Cross in late April 1945, the pilots of his former Staffel 14/JG 26 are described as happy for him because he never scored his victories at the expense of his men, but because he was a very skilled pilot and leader.

Although this is only one book, it appears to be well-researched and documented, especially with regards to interviews with surviving pilots and use of logbooks (i.e., Dortenmann) and therefore very credible to me. In summary, the Green Hearts book left me with the impression that Hans Dortenmann was a very skilled fighter pilot and leader who took his leadership duties seriously and put his men first.