Reinhard Heydrich air victories?

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi, guys.

Before this gets out of hand:

The original loss record from GenQu6Abt clearly state that the loss reason was 'Jägerbeschuss', thus the aircraft was hit by gunfire from an enemy fighter aircraft.

I think in general that one should be very cautious when referring to a publication if one has not also checked the original records available, but I also think one should not dismiss an authors entire production based on one factual error.

In this case Bergström seems to have the correct information.

Regards,
Andreas B

[Franek Grabowski]

Andreas
There is a problem of several factual errors in certain authors publications, originating from lack of research of either original documents or recent publications. This was stressed eg. in recent discussion on the author's Battle of Britain book, which was based on outdated sources, despite the author was awared they cannot be trusted anymore.
In this case, the author provided false information that Pokryshkin may have been responsible for the kill, and that he scored 59 kills during the war. It should have been obvious for the author if he ever checked primary documents, which do not support Pokryshkin memoirs.
Thus said, I am not going into the problem of the author's Russian collaborators, it is neither my interest nor problem. The only point is that the author was and is perceived as the only one.

[Andreas Brekken]

Hi.

OK, I was just responding to the loss reason 'discussion' here. The german side acknowledged this as being due to enemy inflicted damage by a fighter, and not Flak.

In my opinion this discussion underlines my point, that you cannot necessarily take a publication by face value only, without a natural critical attitude.

In this case we have one source or author that state the wrong loss reason all together, while another get the loss reason right, but according to your comment, not necessarily the details with reference to the pilots participating.

With regards to russian sources - where will one be able to locate claim information? Still have to go down to individual unit level documentation to get any form of details??

Regards,
Andreas B

[Jan Gazda]

Hi,

for the sake of fairness I should stress out first that the number of Pokryshkin´s kills is not a quote from Bergström but my remark only. I know Bykov credits Pokryshkin only with 46+6 but as valuable and informative as his book may be it is not flawless (the same holds for Bergström´s books of course). Pokryshkin´s number of kills is uncertain and different Russian sources give great variety of his final score ranging from 52 to 81.

As for the combat discussed in this thread no definitive answer will probably ever be known. The description of it in Bernád, Karlenko and Roba book From Barbarossa to Odessa part 1 is different from Bergström´s and is more traditional in the way that it credits Heydrich´s aircraft to AAA. On the other hand Pokryshkin describes the combat in at least two of his memoir books exactly as Bergström.

As for the propaganda issue I do not know what Franek had in mind since from my point of view hardly any author gave more sober and unbiased description of air war over Eastern front than Bergström in his books. But that might be just my opinion so maybe we should let the readers decide.

And finally I do not know if Bergström speaks Russian but I would be very surprised should he not have at least basic knowledge of Russian language given the quanta of information he had to go through for his books.

Jan

[Franek Grabowski]

Andreas
The list of 'improper research' is long and obviously critical approach is logical. Nonetheless I think that we have the right to condemn any sloppy job.
In regard of Russians, generally yes, because nothing in kind of joint claim/credited victories list was ever published. The new research contains such information, but it is usually limited to particular units or pilots. There were some discussions regarding a complete list, but I think the best would be to ask Russians themselves. Some of them are visiting the site.

Jan
The Bykov's book is the only one based on archival sources. It is not flawless (corrections are available online), but Pokryshkin case was checked extremely carefully. Highest scores are usually based on Pokryshkin memoirs and other propaganda stuff, and as far as I know, nobody was able to contradict Bykov's data.
That said any work based on propaganda sources must be flawed, and that was my exact point. I hope it is clear. And the author does not speak Russian, as he admitted himself when send to Russian sources.
Finally, I think questions to Bernad or Karlenko should be aimed directly to them.

[Boris Ciglic]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

...corrections are available online...

Franek,

could you point me to these corrections?
Cheers,
Boris

[Jan Gazda]

Hi,

this one is probably what Franek had in mind

http://www.avia-hobby.ru/publ/sovaces/errata1.html

Jan

[Dénes Bernád]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

Andreas
Finally, I think questions to Bernad or Karlenko should be aimed directly to them.

My co-author, Jean-Louis Roba, is responsible for that particular piece of info.

By the way, Jochen Prien et co., in their Jagdwaffe series (No. 6/II.) also mention that Heydrich's mount was hit by flak fire in the cooling system compelling him to force land in enemy territory.

[kalender1973]

Again Mr. Grabowski supply the community with not fully correct data.

First, quite all soviet pilots from the Bykov's book have inconsistences in their accounts. Especially it is very often for the aces, who started in Juny 1941. Sometimes the documents show only 1/3 from public known kills. If we know, that all documents from 55 iap were destroyed during their retreat in 1941, it is not unthinkable that some of Pokryshkin kills were "burnt" too. And may be the higher command instance (division) was not informed about these.

Second, in case of Pokryshkin, Bykov&Co violete their own methodology: if they stand to their own rules( see page 13), the account of Pokryshkin looks at least as 53 personal kills as noted in the award record for the 3rd gold star of HSU.