The Flying Tank: Ilyushin Il-2

[NickM]

Originally Posted by kolya1

Overclaiming was not limited to air-to-air combat. The same kind of remarks were formulated about Typhoon claims on tanks in Normandy. So I'd say it's not surprising...

A tank is a small, mobile, camouflaged and armored target. Besides, a damaged tank can very often be repaired because, unlike a plane or a ship, it doesn't crash or sink, so, if one is not forced to pull back immediately, it is perfectly possible to work on it. And, as Franek just said, overestimating results is common... All this taken together leaves plenty of room for erroneous claims.

Kolya: Indeed, for a tank can sparkle & smoke from hits & it's 'external stowage'(often the crew's camp out gear & personal sundries) could catch fire so it's easy to understand how somebody could think he 'killed' it--and given the fact that loitering over an armored column would probably make one VERY vulnerable to German AAA it's no wonder so many pilots were so 'optomistic' about their successes;

nm

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo all,

Fascinating subject, as I am very interested in the Battle of Kursk both land and air. Last year I particularly enjoyed Christer Bergstrom's Kursk, The Air Battle; July 1943. I must say Bergstrom makes a compelling case for the effectiveness of the Il-2 - when it was properly employed en masse and in conjunction with the new PTAB bombs. I do not recall mention of large numbers of German Armoured Fighting Vehicles being claimed destroyed. In fact the actual number of AFVs destroyed in any attack was small, but these attacks by the Il-2s were very effective at disrupting and delaying the German advancing troops, blunting their own attacks and leaving them vulnerable to Soviet counter-attacks.

Leo.

If I may prevail on you for some extra information. Because of the different battle dates (as you noted) and possible insufficient or missing Soviet records Bergstrom's book has very confusing casualty figures at the end of his work. I wonder does Gorbach in Nad Ognennoy Dugoy give aircraft losses for the following air units that also figured in the Kursk battle to a greater or lesser extent.
1 VA (north of Orel)
5 VA (part of the strategic reserve)
ADD (the long-range bomber force)
PVO Strany (sections of the home defence air and AAA units)
Civil Air Fleet/Transport Fleet.

Anything would be of interest.

Regards,

Martin Gleeson.

[Leo Etgen]

Hi Martin

I can only add that according to Gorbach the 2nd Air Army on the Voronezh Front lost in August 1943 due to combat 29 Pe-2 twin-engined bombers, 102 Il-2 ground-attack aircraft, 166 fighters and five Po-2 liaison biplanes. The 5th Air Army on the Steppe Front lost in August 1943 due to combat 49 bombers, 84 Il-2 ground-attack aircraft and 85 fighters. I have also read that according to Ageev and Pentyukov in Air Forces in the Defeat of the German Orel Grouping, from 12 July to 18 August, the 1st Air Army on the West Front lost 190 aircraft, the 15th Air Army on the Bryansk Front lost 559 aircraft and the 16th Air Army on the Central Front lost 247 aircraft. Please note that this later source was published in 1949, therefore I have no idea if the information it contains is altogether reliable.

Horrido!

Leo

[Martin Gleeson]

Leo,

Many thanks for digging out that information.

Martin.