Aircraft shot down 28 May 1941

[Martin Gleeson]

Hallo all,

Herbert Mandl is not buried in the Republic of Ireland, but five identified crewmen from HMS Mashona are. Their bodies were washed ashore in Counties Galway and Mayo.

Hope this helps,

Martin Gleeson.

[Chris Goss]

There is an Uffz Herbert Mandl in Cannock Chase but date of death is 20 Jul 41; could this be when the body came ashore?

[Chris Goss]

Herbert Mandl was washed ashore at Iona 20 Jul 41 and positively identified by his personal belongings; he was initially buried at Reildh Oran Cemetery. This still does not support the attack on the Fleet option but I will check where the target was for the Mold He 111. It disproves John Foreman's '...AA in Thames Estuary' for this Ju 88

[Chris Goss]

III/KG 27 was after harbour and shipping at Liverpool so perhaps this is what the Ju 88 was after; would match with his body coming ashore at Iona

[Brian Bines]

Chris, thanks for the info. on Mandl. As regards the Mold He111 an earlier article on its crash said it took off from Orleans at 2308 hrs.(28th) on an anti-shipping sortie but was contacted in the air with a change of target to Liverpool, being shot down after bombing the target. Ulf Balkes book says Liverpool was the target that night but the information came from pilots logbooks rather than official records. Perhaps the loss of the Bismarck on the 27th meant there was late rescheduling of targets from the units that were to fly planned air-support missions for the battleship.
The Home office Key points reports show raids on a very moderate over the UK on the night of 28/29th May with only Key Point damage to the RAF aerodrome at Squires Gate near Liverpool, and damage to the LNE railway at Hull Docks

[Chris B]

As a new boy may I ask the Forum for advice on the shooting down of an aircraft in Mounts Bay off Penzance. A RN records cites the destruction as being on 28 May 1941 (but I suppose the Germans could have logged it as 29 May if the loss was not noticed the loss until the following day).

The following extract is taken from the website of The Russian Convoy Club of New Zealand and was posted by Mr Bill Brokenshaw who was serving on the vessel in question, HMS Chiltern (or HMT Chiltern).

The link to the website is:
http://www.russianconvoyclub.org.nz/MyStory.htm

For the next 18 months we swept the Cornish and Devonshire coasts “collecting 47 mines in 20 weeks. Up to one third of our trawlers were lost to mines and enemy aircraft. On 28 May 1941 at approximately 2200 hrs while we were approaching our anchorage in Mounts Bay, Penzance, during an air raid a German bomber came within our range. With just one shell we were able to bring it down. Although the crew of the aircraft were able to release their life raft they were not able to save themselves. We picked up their life raft and a new type of radio was found which was capable of sending the position of a disabled aircraft which could be rescued. HMS Chiltern made headlines in the local papers and we were visited by the Air Marshall of the Royal Air Force. Skipper Jimmy Drake was now Lieutenant James Drake, RNR but to us he was always “Jimmy”.

My questions are:

is it possible to identify this aircraft;

if so are the details of its mission known?

are the details of the crew known?

or, even, is anything known?

Thank you

[DuncanM]

Originally Posted by Brian

Hi guys,

Perusing Chris Goss' excellent Sea Eagles Volume One, I notice a loss reported on 28 May 1941, when an aircraft was shot down by RN warships escorting a convoy located north-west of the western coast of Eire.

A report from the CO of HMS Tartar confirms the 'unidentified' aircraft crashing into the sea, of seeing one wing amongst the wreckage and mentions a subsequent rescue operation.

Chris says there were no Luftwaffe losses. I have checked Foreman's FC losses and Ross' CC losses. Was there a BC loss? If not, what was the aircraft?

A mystery!

Cheers
Brian

Extract from HMS Tarter's Report of Proceedings:

H.M.S. TARTAR'S APPENDIX II TO LETTER OF PROCEEDINGS DA TED
31atMAY, 1941
2. Owing to the frequency and intensity of attacks this report is of necessity made
largely from memory, no one having the time to record details while they were taking
place.
3. Weather conditions were as follows. Wind force 3 from North East. Sea and
swell 23. Cloud conditions varied considerably, the sky at times being clear and at
others heavy cloud down to about 4000 feet.
4. In the majority of attacks aircraft approached from astern, quarter or beam. No
attacks were made from before the beam. Attacks were either level bombing or shallow
dive bombing, bomb-release height being about 3,000 feet.
5. It is believed that all attacking aircraft were H.E. Ill's. Occasionally a F.W.
Condor was seen shadowing astern. It is estimated that about 50 aircraft took part in the
attacks over a period of 13 hours.
6. It is not possible to say how many bombs were dropped altogether but 160
bombs were dropped close to "TARTAR," of these two sticks of five each failed to
explode. One of these sticks was within 20 yards of the ship's side.
7. Bombs were mostly dropped in sticks of five. They exploded on impact.
8. Full speed and full helm was used to confuse bomb aiming, the helm being put
over just before bomb release position was attained. At least 5 sticks were avoided in this
manner which would otherwise have fallen dangerously close.
9. Every gun was used, the 4.7" in controlled fire and the 4" and close range
weapons firing independently. 290 rounds of 4.7", 255 rounds of 4", 1,000 rounds of
pom pom and 750 rounds of .5 machine gun ammunition were fired.
10. No damage was caused to "TARTAR."
11. The following points of interest which have already been communicated
verbally to R.A.D.40 were noted:
a. There was a tendency for bombs to be released late. Most misses were overs.
b. Attacks were all from abaft the beam.
c. Attacks were well pressed home despite heavy fire. Very few aircraft were turned
away though the gunfire evidently upset their aim.
d. There was a tendency to open fire too soon, although the aircraft were in range.
In a prolonged attack of this nature ammunition must be husbanded to avoid running
out. This tendency was checked in the later attacks.
12. At about 1000 "TARTAR" was engaging one H.E. Ill on the port beam at
about 3,000 yards range when one round probably from the 4 inch mountings was seen
to hit. Pieces could be seen falling away from the machine and a trail of smoke was
noticed. This machine flew on for about half a minute when it was seen to dive towards
the sea, the smoke increasing. On striking the water a large cloud of smoke appeared
and one wing could be seen sticking up. None of the crew bailed out. This aircraft was
originally reported as having been shot down at 1025 but subsequent investigation
shows that the time was nearer 1000.
13. Several other machines were thought to have been hit but there is insufficient
evidence to justify claiming any of them as "damaged."
14. The following remarks from the Commanding Officer, H.M.S. "MASHONA"
are of interest.
15. The report by "TARTAR" ... is the collated report on both ships.
16. Similar avoiding action to that taken by "TARTAR" was taken in
"MASHONA."
17. With reference to paragraph 5 the following difference was noticed in the attack
made on MASHONA in which the ship was hit.
18. The stick dropped consisted of six bombs, the centre two of which appeared to
be about 250 lbs. the remainder about 100 lbs. The 4th bomb, which hit, came down
approximately 200 feet out of the line of the remainder and in the direction of the ship's
turn. The flight appeared normal and the impression gained was that it was "aimed off"
at the last moment as the flight appeared normal.
19. The deflection may have been due to a bent fin but it is suggested that a pattern
of this kind with a deliberate "aim off" would be extremely difficult to avoid.
ON HIS MAJESTY'S SERVICE:OBSERVATIONS OF THE BRITISH HOME FLEET
FROM THE DIARY, REPORTS, AND LETTERS OF
JOSEPH H. WELLINGS ASSISTANT U.S. NAVAL ATTACHE LONDON, 1940-41
edited byJOHN B. HATTENDORF,

p237-238.