Erich Hartmann vs. P-51

[mayfair35]

RE: Hartmann vs P-51
I was on the June 24th mission and only 1 P-51 was lost on the Ploesti mission. The other loss was on an Air Sea Rescue escort mission. Welch was hit by light flak in the Pescara, Italy area and crashed into the sea.
For the Ploesti mission, 46 Mustangs took off, 7 were early returns, 39 Mustangs rendezvoused with the B-24s at 0920 hours, 38 Mustangs left bombers at 1021 hours. 38 P-51s down at base at 1530 hours. Claims were
1 Me-109 destroyed 2 FW-190s destroyed 1 IAR 80 Probably destroyed
2 IAR 80 destroyed 2 ME-109s Probably destroyed

I believe the FW-190s were actually IAR 80s

Cordially, Art Fiedler

[Kapper]

Kenneth,

The issue of the Luftwaffe system of verification has been pretty much flogged to death within other discussion threads in this Forum, you might wish to do a search on this to see several different viewpoints. You are correct in your comment that this subject is very subjective as several of these threads ended up being closed by the moderator

For my opinion, I started writing a detailed response to try to justify my opinion and found that I was starting to write an essay. To keep it simple, I believe initially the German system was very rigid but was relaxed during the conflict to help process the backlog of claims (and possibly propaganda). So Robs answer is a very good answer, however I will add that the application of systems change as circumstances change (for good or bad) and I believe that this occurred on both sides during various stages of the war.

Regards,

Craig..

[kennethklee]

Originally Posted by Kapper

Kenneth,

The issue of the Luftwaffe system of verification has been pretty much flogged to death within other discussion threads in this Forum, you might wish to do a search on this to see several different viewpoints. You are correct in your comment that this subject is very subjective as several of these threads ended up being closed by the moderator

For my opinion, I started writing a detailed response to try to justify my opinion and found that I was starting to write an essay. To keep it simple, I believe initially the German system was very rigid but was relaxed during the conflict to help process the backlog of claims (and possibly propaganda). So Robs answer is a very good answer, however I will add that the application of systems change as circumstances change (for good or bad) and I believe that this occurred on both sides during various stages of the war.

Regards,

Craig..

Thanks Craig. I should have realized that this topic is not new and has been the subject of previous threads and posts, and I should have searched for them. You and Rob Romero make very valid points about verification systems for aerial victories, especially about being subject to human idiosyncrasies and situational circumstance.

Best,
Kenneth

[Nikita Egorov]

quote=FalkeEins;85562]Khazanov doesn't go into the sort of detail you've attempted. I've translated parts of his piece...& the response from Lorant/Ring, which includes detailed quotes from Khazanov's article - therefore the following might be of some interest to you. Ring states that these illustrations "serve to expose the superficial nature of Khazanov's assertions and confirm that his only goal in compiling his article was to discredit Hartmann and his record ...."
[/quote]

For sure Khazanov's article is too poor to prove Hartmann's overclaiming. However, there remain lots of questions. I have already posted some times ago the example of unsubstantiated victories against Aircobras, claimed by Hartmann. They were well confirmed by authorities, though having no background from the opposite side.
Most of the remarks of Lorant/Ring in point of fact criticise mistakes in Hartmann's victory list, that Khazanov based on while writing the article. Eventually, it is not Khazanov's problem that western researchers can not fix the reliable list of Hartmann's claims throughout more than 60 years. From my experience I can say that those obscure "Lagg" hamper identification signifficantly.
Another point here, I know that many members of this board believe that any overstatement in German claims are absolutely impossible and if Soviet records contradict this in some cases, then those records are pure fake. In this case rather rhetorical question emerges, taking TW claims lists and comparing them with Soviet documents, why claims by Barkhorn, Rall, Krupinski, Beisswenger, Wolf, Wolfrum, Schack, Brendel, Lipfert and many others coinside with Soviet records with little exeptions, and those made by Hartmann, Batz, Rudorffer, Lang, Nowotny, Philipp in many cases are missing. I suppose here a malicious campaign against this Luftwaffe pilots Soviet authorities deliberately hide info on the planes shot down by those personalities...

[susank]

Hello Art -

John Arthur Last of the 31st FG was downed on 24 Jun 1944 while on an Air Sea rescue patrol. A Charles E Welch was downed on 12 Jun 1944 in a P-38. Could you clarify the 24 Jun 1944 incident?

Thank you!

[mayfair35]

Hello Susank,
I know nothing of the 'Last' incident. The 325th flew escort for a PBY on an Air/Sea rescue mission. Pilots not on the 325th mission to Ploesti escorted the PBY. There were 3 P-51s from the 317th FS, 2 from the 318th FS, and 5 from the 319th FS. The pilot was reported in the sea near Pescara, Italy. Apparently Lt Welsch flew too near the coast and was downed by light flak. The PBY was escorted for 3 hours; however, nothing was reported about the success/failure of the mission.
Cordially, Art Fiedler