Luftwaffe Aircraft Loss Reports?

[RodM]

Hi Mike,

as previously mentioned the six-figure digit references relate to reports from Luftgaukommando XI. for both American and British losses.

NARA does hold photoprints of these; I have obtained copies of a few hundred of pages (majority relating to RAF losses) from NARA in the past = attached is a sample, frame number 131229 (to correct my earlier post, the captured films may not contain 30,000+ frames but 130,000+ frames).

Of the RAF-related KE/J files, these are in British hands, but I have found a very small number of original KE reports misfiled on KU/J files at NARA.

Mike, have you looked at the last fiche for RAF BC losses in Jan 1945? Do the documents appear to be of German or British origin? Are there any reference numbers listed (I ask because the RAF Missing Research and Enquiry Service appear to have used a master index of losses during their invesigations, but I don't know if this list has been made public in the UK)?

Rabe, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments on the stealing of artifacts and documents from the files. As to the microfilms, I'm not so sure that this microfilming was done post-war by the British. The microfilms may have been of German origin and captured in that format.

Cheers

Rod

[mhuxt]

Sweet Cheezus Rod, that photoprint is of the Mosquito losses on Clarion!


"Tell your master, that if he will give us food and shelter for the night, he may join us on our quest for the Holy Grail."

"Ah, well ah'll ask 'im, but I don' think 'e'll be ver' keen. "E's already got one, you know."


(Wouldn't have a higher-res version, would you?)

[Revi16]

Originally Posted by RodM

Hi Mike,

as previously mentioned the six-figure digit references relate to reports from Luftgaukommando XI. for both American and British losses.

NARA does hold photoprints of these; I have obtained copies of a few hundred of pages (majority relating to RAF losses) from NARA in the past = attached is a sample, frame number 131229 (to correct my earlier post, the captured films may not contain 30,000+ frames but 130,000+ frames).

Of the RAF-related KE/J files, these are in British hands, but I have found a very small number of original KE reports misfiled on KU/J files at NARA.

Mike, have you looked at the last fiche for RAF BC losses in Jan 1945? Do the documents appear to be of German or British origin? Are there any reference numbers listed (I ask because the RAF Missing Research and Enquiry Service appear to have used a master index of losses during their invesigations, but I don't know if this list has been made public in the UK)?

Rabe, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments on the stealing of artifacts and documents from the files. As to the microfilms, I'm not so sure that this microfilming was done post-war by the British. The microfilms may have been of German origin and captured in that format.

Cheers

Rod

Hi Rod,

Perhaps you could point me in the right direction then, as no Archivists have been able to find or show me any 6 digit reports.

Do you know which Record Group, microfilm # or fiche # these are kept on?

Or are you referring to the British Reports from Jan. 45 only, fiche 5985?

Regards,
Mike

[RodM]

Hi Mike,

firstly, the photo prints with the six-digit frame number references are in RG 242 and should be a part of the collection of Luftgau reports.

I originally obtained around 60-70 pages of A3 copy from these photo prints (two photo prints to an A3 page) via a mail enquiry several years ago. The male NARA archivist involved with the enquiry/order ('sorry, I don't recall his name) informed me that (a) the photo prints were made from microfilm provided by the British, and (b) that he didn't know of the current whereabouts of these films. He also asked that I stop ordering large numbers of photocopies from these photo prints (if I remember correctly, under the pretext that the handling of prints could damage them).

A couple of years later I hired a researcher to photograph the remaining photo prints that I required, and they dealt with the same archivist who handled my original copy order. The researcher was able to go through the original photo prints and photograph all of what I requested.

I should state that I can only assume that at least at that time they held an entire set of photo prints, for the 250-odd frames that I eventually obtained in copy were all from a very select period, and no frames were missing from the lots I obtained.

Unfortunately I no longer have the order sheet, which would provide the exact file reference.

Yes, I do mean fiche 5985 (I see that I actually do have this fiche, I thought that I didn't). Please note that the fiche does not relate to RAF Bomber Command but to the 21st Bomber Command USAAF.

Mark, yes the photo print does relate to the 2TAF Mosquito operations and losses from Clarion on 22 February 1945. The RAF Special Branch files in AIR 40 at TNA also contain a number of translated interrogation reports from captured aircrew from Mosquitoes lost during the operation.

Cheers

Rod

[mhuxt]

Thanks Rod.

You wouldn't happen to have a higher-rez version would you? I'm trying to sharpen up the print as posted, but some of the info is still only tantalisingly close to legibility.

Cheers,

Mark

[RodM]

Originally Posted by mhuxt

Thanks Rod.

You wouldn't happen to have a higher-rez version would you? I'm trying to sharpen up the print as posted, but some of the info is still only tantalisingly close to legibility.

Cheers,

Mark

Hi Mark,

I do have a much higher res photo, but one of the problems is posting it here is the file size restrictions for uploading.

The original photo print is in AIR 40/2316 at TNA. A duplicate British Air Ministry photo print, along with a 10-page English translation of a German Interrogation report specifically derived from the 2 TAF Mosquito losses during Clarion are in AIR 40/2316 at TNA.

NARA in the US should have photo prints of the following frames from the Luftgaukommando XI. microfilm in RG 242 that relate to the Mosquito losses during Clarion (caveat, Mike has indicated that NARA are now stating that they don't have this series of photo prints). Note - these are the Luftgaukommando copies of the reports/signals, not the Dulag Luft copies, which would have been assigned KE numbers:

Frames 132291 and 132291a
Frame 132307
Frame 132314
Frames 132318 and 132319
Frame 132326
Frames 132330 to 132339 inclusive
Frames 132347 to 132352 inclusive
Frames 132355 to 132368 inclusive

If you sent me a PM with your e-mail, then I can e-mail the high res version of the map.

Cheers

Rod

[Revi16]

Originally Posted by RodM

Hi Mark,

I do have a much higher res photo, but one of the problems is posting it here is the file size restrictions for uploading.

The original photo print is in AIR 40/2316 at TNA. A duplicate British Air Ministry photo print, along with a 10-page English translation of a German Interrogation report specifically derived from the 2 TAF Mosquito losses during Clarion are in AIR 40/2316 at TNA.

NARA in the US should have photo prints of the following frames from the Luftgaukommando XI. microfilm in RG 242 that relate to the Mosquito losses during Clarion (caveat, Mike has indicated that NARA are now stating that they don't have this series of photo prints). Note - these are the Luftgaukommando copies of the reports/signals, not the Dulag Luft copies, which would have been assigned KE numbers:

Frames 132291 and 132291a
Frame 132307
Frame 132314
Frames 132318 and 132319
Frame 132326
Frames 132330 to 132339 inclusive
Frames 132347 to 132352 inclusive
Frames 132355 to 132368 inclusive

If you sent me a PM with your e-mail, then I can e-mail the high res version of the map.

Cheers

Rod

Hi,

If the photo prints exist, no one there seems to know how to locate them.
I will be at the Archives this week and wil try again using your information.

I've reviewed the RG242 finding aid numerous times (hundreds of subjects), all of the reports listed have a letter prefix, i.e. AV, KE, KU, ME, J, etc. and are located & ordered that way.
Have not found any reports marked only Luftgaukommando XI with a 6 digit designator.

I'm sorry if I'm still not clear on this, are all of the photo prints you received from NARA dated Jan. 1945 (from fiche 5985)?

I am trying to locate earlier reports (1939-1944).

Regards,
Mike

[RodM]

Hi Mike,

the six-digit reports that I ordered were referenced in the indexes on the fiches for November 1944 (# 5981), December 1944 (# 5982), and (mostly) January through to March 1945 (# 5983).

Having looked at fiche # 5985, this appears to have nothing to do with RAF BC in January 1945, instead it contains a list of personnel (name, rank, serial number) of the 20th Bomber Command USAAF.

The last verifiable time that I know the photo prints were viewed at NARA was early 2006, this from the EXIF data of the digital photos of photo prints that I received. My original photocopy order was probably made in 2005.

The frames (totalling 245) that I have copies of run from 131223 to 132742, all relating to losses in 1945 (I did get copies of some earlier frames for late 1944 for a colleague, but no longer have these myself).

If NARA had made photo prints of all the frames mentioned in the RG 92 indexes, then they would have totalled some 30,000+ prints (I see that the reports start in 1939 at around frame 101,400 and end in 1945 in the 132,700s. It was never a case of them making photo prints just for my order, and, besides, half the copies of frames that I obtained were personally photographed by a researcher.

Unfortunately, I no longer have the correspondence pertaining to my dealings with NARA or the orders.

The photo prints are most likely not indexed under Luftgaukommando XI.; it is just that I know this is where they originate from and were probably a part of a cache of Luftgaukommando XI. documents captured by the British in the closing stages of the war (this cache including the Luftgaukommando XI. KTB and an Abschuesseliste). I make this presumption because (a) a large LGK. XI. archive was captured, and (b) they are the Luftgau copies of the reports, and thus do not have a KE/J etc identifier, which was only added at Dulag Luft/Auswertungsstelle West, and (c) if the documents were a part of the Dulag Luft/Auswertungsstelle West collection, one would think that similar documents from other Luftgaukommandos would have survived. The British either captured the microfilm or the original photo prints.


I don't know if the following helps but I believe I made my initial enquiries of NARA based upon Box 77 in RG 242, Stack Area 190, Row 14, Compartment 5, Shelf 3. Box 77 contained a file (RG 242/1033) that had an alphabetical index of crash reports by crash location (this being seperate from the index by report type, i.e. KU/J etc).

Cheers

Rod

PS - Mike, an update - I do retain the original invoice for the six-digit frames (all in the 131000s) that I ordered, and they were all from Box 38, RG 242, Stack Area 190, Row 14, Compartment 4, Shelf 5.

Mark, thanks for the PM, requested high-res pic has been e-mailed