238 Squadron pilot in the sea 1940

[nick de carteret]

Re: no238sq Battle Of Britain

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your PM.

Taken from my uncle's log book, he flew the following 238 Hurricanes in action during July 1940. These are the entries in his log for that month after joining 238 Squadron on 15 July.

15 July practice 3805 - 0.50
15 July practice 2827 - 1.05
16 July practice 2946 - 0.55
17 July to Warmwell 3805 - 0.20
17 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.55
17 July raid patrol 3767 - 1.00
17 July raid patrol 3767 - 1.25
17 July raid patrol 3767 - 0.35
18 July raid patrol 3805 - 1.15
18 July to Middle Wallop 3805 -0.15
19 July RT test 3805 - 0.10
21 July to Warmwell 3805 - 0.20
21 July NF landing 3805 - 0.15
21 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.45
21 July raid patrol 3805 - 1.20 Do.17 destroyed
21 July raid patrol 3805 - 1.05
22 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.10
22 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.40
22 July to Middle Wallop 3805 - 0.20
25 July to Warmwell 3805 - 0.20
25 July raid patrol 3805 - 1.15
25 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.50
25 July raid patrol 3219 - 0.40
26 July raid patrol 3219 - 1.00
26 July raid patrol 3219 - 0.55
26 July to Middle Wallop 3219 - 0.20
26 July raid patrol 3219 - 0.30
27 July raid patrol 3823 - 1.45
27 July raid patrol 3823 - 2.00 Bf.109 chased across Channel
27 July to Middle Wallop 3823 - 0.15
28 July to Warmwell 3805 - 0.20
28 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.40
29 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.40
29 July raid patrol 3805 - 0.50
29 July to Middle Wallop 3805 - 0.20
29 July test 3805 - 0.20
30 July to Farnborough 3219 - 0.20
31 July to Warmwell 3219 - 0.20
31 July raid patrol 4047 - 0.20
31 July R/T test 4047 - 0.30

I'll post this in the forum in case any one else is interested. Cheers Nick.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steve sheridan
Hi Nick,
Just read your link on Twelve O' Clock High regarding
your uncle who commanded NO238SQ, during the BOB.
I wondered if you could possibly help me , with my
research on this squadron, and tell me what serial or code letters your uncles aircraft wore during july 1940.

Any help would be most appreciated.

Regards,
Steve Sheridan

[Jon]

Thanks for the responses so far.

Does anyone have details on the 5th July shoot down, also if the aircraft landed in wiltshire is it possible the pilot ( Sgt Bann ) could have landed in the sea far enough out to require a long swim ??

I also ask the more experienced researchers if the lack of information recorded on incidents like Sgt Bann going into the sea are common ? I appreciate it was happening every day at this time and we were more concerned about the expected invasion than perhaps ensuring all was logged correctly?

[Alex Smart]

Hello Jon,

Are you saying that the July 5th pilot was Sgt. Bann ?

Friday's for the period were -

10th May; 17th May; 24th May; 31st May.
7th June; 14th June; 21st June; 28th June.
5th July; 12th July; 19th July; 26th July.
2nd Aug; 9th Aug; 16th Aug; 23rd Aug; 30th Aug.

5th July aircraft was P3703.

But

If Sgt Bann was up on the 8th August that is when S/Ldr Fenton ditched in P2947. Is it possible that the content of the leter refers to this and not to Bann himself? the 8th was Thursday.

There does not seem to be any other 238 Hurricane that fits, unless Bann was in one borrowed from another unit, even so if it is the 5th then no other was lost that day AFAIK.

All the best

Alex

[Peter Cornwell]

It was P/O B. FIRMINGER that flew into a 'stuffed cloud' at Tidworth 9.50 a.m. on 5 July 1940 in P3703.

Regarding S/L FENTON's aircraft on 8 August 1940, there is an annoying duplication in records that perhaps Nick de Carteret would kindly resolve from his uncle's Log Book. P2947 or P3823 ? It would be good to know for sure at long last. Many thanks.

[nick de carteret]

Alex and Peter,

I can tell you quite a bit about 8th August but regretfully not the serial number of the Hurricane that my uncle ditched in the sea that day - his log book does not record any serials after 31 July, I guess things had hotted up to such an extent that minor details such as identification marks were just not relevant by this stage.

According to notes that I have found amongst his papers, Sgt.Bann did not participate in the 12 sorties that were ordered to intercept the raid on convoy "Peewit" on that date.

The twelve were: Fl/Lt Turner, PO Davis, FO Hughes, Sgt Marsh, Sgt Domagala, Sgt Batt, Fl/Lt Walch, PO Steborowski, Sgt Little, PO MacCaw, PO Cawse and Sgt Seabourne.

The rest I can only quote from his privately published memoirs:-

" On the 8th, as usual, we were at readiness at first light. After breakfast, my adjutant Noel David, fetched me to the office for a rare spell of administration. As soon as I left dispersal, the Squadron was scrambled - led by Stuart Walch, and went into action over a shipping convoy a few miles south of the Isle of White intercepting a big raid. During the scrap Eric Turner, the 'A' Flight Commmander was shot down. There was no rescue launch in the area so I went out to have a look for him - on my own, as all the others were being refuelled. I could not find any trace but, while searching, I spotted a German seaplane at sea level. I went down to attack, gave him a long burst but, being much faster, I overshot and his gunner must have got in a lucky one which cut an oil pipe. I turned North but shortly afterwards my engine seized. Having so little height, I had to ditch rather than bail out.
The propeller had stopped, I undid everything, harness and parachute straps, and to this day I can remember holding off above the waves. I was thrown clear but banged my head on the way out - probably on the reflector sight on the windscreen. My unpulled parachute was close by and was as buoyant as a lifebuoy so I bobbed about for half an hour, somewhat dazed from the bang on the head.
Fortunately, I had been seen by HMS Bassett, an Admiralty Armed Trawler. The skipper had been watching my approach, not knowing whether I was friend or foe. They took a bearing on the splash, steamed over and hauled me out. Not long after I was picked up, the convoy was bombed again. Soon afterwards the ship fished out another pilot and he turned out to be German. We shared the cabin for the rest of the day. He had a little English so we managed to converse to some extent. I remember that he hailed from Leipzig and was the pilot of a Bf 110. Like me he had to strip for his clothes to dry and his few possessions comprised a large pack of condoms. I do not know what he thought he was coming for - with the next five years as a POW!
I was put ashore at Gosport late that evening having made some good friends on board. my forehead needed seventeen stitches and the medics sent me on three weeks sick leave to give it time to heal"

[Alex Smart]

Hello,


FCL vol 1 has P2947 down as Sqdn Ldr Fenton's a/c on the 8th Aug.
With P3617 F/O MacCaw and P3823 being F/Lt.Turner.

Thank you for details re P/O B. Firminger.

Still leaves the question re Bann though.

There must be details of hime coming ashore and being checked out and returning to Squadron somewhere, local Police records perhaps, if we knew where he came ashore.


Alex

[Peter Cornwell]

Many thanks Nick for posting details from S/L FENTON's account.

The German pilot he shared a cabin can be identified as Oberlt Martin MULLER the Gruppenadjutant of Stab I./StG3. So either S/L FENTON misunderstood him to say he was a 110 pilot or MULLER was being highly security concious. And yes, he WAS from Leipzig !

[Jon]

Hi Alex

No i am certainly not saying it was Bann into the sea, i only wish we could find some details on this incident. I have done a good deal of research on Sgt Bann but this incident, together with identifying the JU88 or Heinkel he again mentions in a letter, that he followed almost back to France before killing its rear gunner with his last burst i can find no further information on. ( i will post this as a question with a date soon)
Sgt Bann is a fascinating pilot to study, just an "ordinary" pilot with four confirmed kills including shared before he was Killed on 28/09/40.
I am visiting his crash site on the Isle of Wight in a few weeks my 5th visit to it and would love to have the answers to these final few questions.
Thanks for all the help
Jon Eeles

[Franek Grabowski]

Nick
Excellent stuff! Any mention of the Poles in the memoirs?
Anyway, I would like to note that neither log-book nor ORB cannot be considered a definite source of correct information on aircraft or sorties. An extreme care must be taken, especially during such a hot periods.