Bodenwöhr Waldwerk - Mtt Bf 109 K-4 assembly lines 1944 - 1945

[D.B. Andrus]

Hi Marc-Andre

No offense taken, just trying to help clarify the Erla fuselage situation.

Very glad you started this thread...it's starting to show light at the end of the tunnel.

Best Regards,

D.B.

Sorry for the pun, couldn't restrain myself.

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Yup D-B.,

Good to have some pun after such a high flight inquiry. I just love it :-))

Roland, Matthias, Carl,

Any new information about the location of DB 605/AS or D production plants? Any thoughts about the engine supply lines between January and April 1945? There must be a rational explanation for this line of engineless Flossenbürg Bf 109 K-4's... and those Bodenwöhr engineless airframes at Wertheim, of course.

Cheers
Marc

[masmar]

Hi Marc,

no idea as yet. The engine supply chain is completely fadded out in all publications I own. Maybe they were delivered by Daimler directly, that's why Bodenwöhr and Flossenbürg only brought the fuslages into the assembly.
I bought the already on LEMB mentioned book of Timo Bullemer "Das Kriegsende in Cham: Ereignisse und Entwicklungen - November 1944 bis Mai 1945". The book is pretty intresting, but unfortunately contains not to much new info on the Michelsdorf airfield. It says, that the G.I.s found 50 fighter aircrafts when taking that base in Michelsdorf. Now I try to find out if they would fit to our pictures. The author writes that there exists a collection on the Michelsdorf airfield at Cham town administration. That would be intresting to see. There is also a nice picture of damaged a FW 190 lying in a meadow. In the beackground a Bf 109 in same bad conditions is visible. Unfortunately the picture is very low sized.

regards

Matthias

[RolandF]

Matthias, did you see the photo I´ve posted in adifferent thread? Do you have any additional information about the source of this pic?

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=18913

Concerning the the engines I´m rather convinced the fuselages left Flossenbürg as complete units, i.e. with the DB 605s attached. All available photos prove this assumption. Without the engine, its bearers, the wiring and other necessary accessoires the firewall between engine compartment and cockpit looks rather "clean" and "empty" on all photos showing this assembly status. The Wertheim fuselages feature all those parts with loose wiring ends but without the engine. Even the canted struts supporting the engine bearer - which make only sense in the very moment when the DB gets fitted - are already attached.

http://www.koelzsch-restauration.de/.../Me-109_04.jpg

For unknown reasons the engines were removed somewhere between Flossenbürg and Wertheim IMHO.

Concerning the producers of the Daimler-Benz engines I have to pass this question to the experts. I only can say that just as the tail units the engine covers were built and painted at different locations. That´s why the camo areas and grey values don´t fit together on most Flossenbürg fuselages.

Regards

Fran

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Servus Matthias und Roland!

Thanks again for both your inputs. Any chance for you to pay a visit to the Cham municipal administration in the near future? Sure it would be great to see all this primary documentation. One wonders how many more Bf 109 K-4 pics did survive May 1945... 50 of them found there in 1945? Good to know. I surmize they all had their engines...

Roland, coming back to this engine issue, I don't doubt the Flossenbürg machines had theirs: the pics published by Poruba and Mol 2000 that you so kindly uploaded are self-explaining. But how is it then possible to explain what US photos do show: factory-fresh engineless Bf 109 K-4's fuselages both with Bodenwöhr and Flossenbürg camouflage patterns? Are there any clues to support your theory and observations (engine fitted fuselages as documented in Flossebürg and then dismantled at Wertheim, post #44) against mine (out-of DB 605/AS or D Waldwerke sending their finished fuselages to other workshops still supplied by Daimler-Benz?, post #40)?

Here again my two cents based upon the available pictures analysis:

A. Wertheim (Noro 2009, p. 101, *136, #post 11; Poruba and Mol 2000, p. 40, added here): Both pictures documenting the state of assembly ahead of the firewall bulkhead reveal the same situation: a substantial amount of wiring and boxes are affixed on the bulkhead's lower portion + lower engine bearers only are bolted to the firewall; the upper engine bearers are missing. This fits perfectly with the picture showing the 6+ DB 605/AS or D on their trolleys published by Carl Hildebrandt (Hildebrandt 1988, p.9, post #23): the foremost engine does show the left upper engine bearer bolted on it.

B. Unknown location (Noro 2009, p. 103, #138, post 11; post #27 by Carl): the photo posted by Carl does show the same prefitting situation. A substantial amount of wires and boxes are already fixed on the lower firewall bulkhead, as are only the lower engine bearers. Unfortunately, no DB 605 D on trolleys to confort the Wertheim clue.

What can we deduce? In both locations, the Bf 109 K-4 airframes do show the same level of fitting out: wires and boxes are already substantially fixed on the bulkhead's lower part; lower engine bearers only fixed. Evidence so far is thin, but on this basis, there is no indication that those airframes had their engines fitted at Bodenwöhr and then removed at Wertheim prior their dispersal in the woods. In the contrary, the fact that both the engines on trolleys and the wing sets were all located either next to or at the entrance of the Schlossberg tunnel does speak for sub-assemblies arriving there by railroad, being offloaded and readied in the tunnel workshop before being transported to the uphill forrested areas for mating on the waiting fuselages. Let's also remember the latter were dispersed in the woods surrounding Wertheim's airfield where the fly-ins and handing over tasks were carried out.

The depicted airframes complete with tailplanes and engines with their cowlings piled up at Flossenbürg inn May 1945 are one reality. That not all Flossenbürg Waldwerke could work along the same line is documented by Hideki Noro's #pic 138 and Carls post #27. The probability is thus high that, during the last two - three monthes, engine supply issues forced some Waldwerke to send their engineless fuselages to still engine supplied assembly shops like Wertheim.

Facit: a variety of makeshift production/assembly situations can be expected to have arisen in the crumbling Third Reich during the last final monthes or weeks as compared to the production plans implemented between October and December 1944...

Cheers
Marc

PS:
- I do hope to see on day pictures of airframes found at Bodenwöhr (so far, no currently available photos of stockpiled, already motorized fuselages, waiting for final assembly there...).
- No matter how hard I tried to swap keywords for a Google search, I did not find ANY information about Daimler-Benz aero production plants, especially for the DB 605/AS or D. Beyond description and power output, I drew a complete blank. Any ideas where to find the required documentation?

[masmar]

Hi Marc and Roland

all that wiring, connectors and holders are mounting parts for the engine and do not belong to the engine directly but to the fuslage subassembly. Only the engines without attached parts were delivered by DB. I think you could be right with your theory, that the airframes were brought into that state that just the engine would have been needed and then delivered to an alternative assembly line like Wertheim. For me as well, it doesn't make to much sense that they brokeup the hole supplier chain. I think all the smaller parts were delivered to and installed within the closer Mtt. Regensburg network. Maybe the engine supply by rail took to long to the end of the war. So they looked out for a place closer to Daimler Benz in Baden-Württemberg. And Wertheim would be directly in the middle. Provided that DB still was producing in the Stuttgart area.
But thats just speculation, anyhow it sounds presumably to me.

I tried to google with "Daimler Benz U-Verlagerung"
and found the following site:
http://www.kz-denk-neckarelz.de/goldfisch/goldfisch.htm

DB was planning to move their production north into a underground facility near Neckarelz (see also Doggerwerk near Happurg for BMW engine production). That makes the distance to Wertheim even smaller (65km). I think that could explain a lot.


I hope I'll find some time to visit Cham municipal administration. It's not yet in my calendar, but on top of my to-do-list

Let me know what you think on that Neckarelz thing. New place new luck?

ps: Over a period the DB605s where attached in Bodenwöhr as well. I found some parts like fasteners which were directly fixed to the engine.

[masmar]

Hi again,

A short correction:
former production of DB was in Genshagen near Berlin and Mannheim:
http://www.luftarchiv.de/index.htm?/motoren/benz.htm

the underground production site "Goldfisch" was already producing and not only in the state of construction:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decknam..._Geheimobjekte
http://www.explorate.de/Forum/unteri...goldfisch.html

I'm looking forward to your answers.

Greez

Matthias

[Marc-André Haldimann]

Hallo Matthias,

Wow, great, simply great! I wasn't aware of this huge "Goldfisch" DB underground production plant at Neckarelz! And to know it was just 65 km away from Wertheim... Talk about piecing back some basic evidences, Congrats, Matthias!

There I found more precise informations:

http://www.kz-denk-neckarelz.de/gold...ldfischbro.pdf

Daimler-Benz Director Müller decided on 7 March 1944 to relocalize the Genshagen plant to the Gypsum mine of Neckarelz after visiting this place. The plan was to have the 50'000 square meters underground factory up and running within 7 weeks. The first 500 deportees to be used as forced labour were brought from Dachau by the SS around mid March; during late spring and early summer, an estimated 5'000 deportees toiled on a horrendous schedules in day and nightshifts to finish "Goldfisch" and "Brasse" underground factories. By 26 June 1944, the first 21 out of the 2'000 factory machines from Genshagen effectively arrived, together with the skilled workers, to Neckarelz; by the end of August, the first prodcution step was installed and production started at once; It was interrupted in septmeber by the collapse of part of the cavern's vault, with heavy loss of lief.

Finally, the first DB 605's were delivered to Mtt at the beginning of October. The planned-for monthly output of 500 new engines and 350 more repaired engines was never achieved though, even with the employment of 7'000 workers, mainly foreigners, on a double shift schedule, with about 3'000 deportees employed under atrocious conditions for developping the infrastrucures and suffering accordingly terrible loss of life rates. "Goldfisch" was also used to relocate the Slovak Rochen /Dubnica Daimler-Benz factory, and plans were drawn to relocate the Sindelfingen factory as well, but the latter move was never carried out. Thus Daimler-Benz managed to keep most of its production tool out of harm's way from incessant Allied raids. Production ceased by the end of March and this huge facility was overrun by the US Army on 2 April 1945, the very day T/5 Robert F Stubenrauch took his pictures of the Fulmann GbmH Wertheim assembly place.

For nowaday pictures:
http://www.explorate.de/militaria/goldfisch.htm

For more informations on Neckarelz and Daimler-Benz:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/KZ_Neckarelz



Between your infos, the ones of Carl and Roland, all elements of this thread do find their place within the following probable time frame:

- Summer 1944: Wertheim' Flumann GmbH becomes a Messerschmitt repair facility carrying repair work in their Schlossberg tunnel workshop. Acceptance flights are carried out (Carl, post #38).

- From October 1944 onwards: the "Goldfisch" Daimler-Benz underground facility in Neckarelz, 65 kilometers away from Wertheim, starts to turn out new and repaired DB 605/AS or D (Matthias, post #46-7)

- End of January 1945: due to operational priorities, acceptance flights activities in the Amberg-Schafhof-Vilseck area are shut down (Roland, post #39).

- From February 1945 onwards, part of the Bodenwöhr airframes production is sent to Wertheim for engine and wings outfitting, final assembly, test and acceptance flights.

Now remains to know:

- Why only Bodenwöhr "outsourced" part of it's Bf 109K-4 fuselages production to Wertheim, and not Flossenbürg.

- To where was sent the engineless part of the Flossenbürg airframes production, "outsourced" for engine and wing outfitting, test and acceptance flights?
Let's hope that geographically more revealing or better captioned pictures of those engineless Flossenbürg camouflage patterned fuselages lined up on a "location unknown" Holzrückerweg will show up!

So long for tonight, and thanks to all for bringing this complex chain of events back together!

Cheers
Marc

[Charles Bavarois]

Marc,

please let me add a few thoughts to your great scenario on Wertheim.

Quote:
“Summer 1944: Wertheim' Flumann GmbH becomes a Messerschmitt repair facility carrying repair work in their Schlossberg tunnel workshop. Acceptance flights are carried out”

Flugzeugwerke Mannheim “Flumann” was doing repairs on Bf 109s at least since 1942. Flumann always was an independent plant with its own leadership, workers, infrastructure and budget. It never was a subcontractor of Messerschmitt. I have acceptance-flights of repaired a/c from 1942 up to March 1944 at Mannheim and from Juli 1944 from Wertheim.

Quote:
“End of January 1945: due to operational priorities, acceptance flights activities in the Amberg-Schafhof-Vilseck area are shut down”

We can verify a lot of acceptence-flights at Vilseck, Amberg and Cham up the the end of March and even early April 1945 what is very near to the absolute cessation of Bf 109 production itself. As for Amberg-Schafhof: Sharing an airfield with an operational flying unit was not unusual. Just remember München-Riem, Neuburg/Donau, Schwerin, Leipzig-Mockau a.s.o).
BTW: IV./SG 151 was not an operational flying unit, but a mere advanced training group and stopping activities of A/B 43 and A/B 121 has no conection to Messerschmitt, but was part of the general reduction of training due to fuel-shortages.


Quote:
“From February 1945 onwards, part of the Bodenwöhr airframes production is sent to Wertheim for engine and wings outfitting, final assembly, test and acceptance flights”..

This points towards a general shift of final-assembly to Wertheim. Actually it was a small-scale and unique stopgap measure. Hauptausschuss Flugzeugbau filed a report on the situation on a/c-deliveries on 14. February 1945 and said:
“Zur Entlastung vom Mtt.R wurden den Reparaturwerken Flumann Wertheim und Wels im Januar für je 30 Flugzeuge die Großbauteile übergeben. Eine Ausbrigung von diesen aufgerüsteten Flugzeugen erfolgte bis 10.2.45 nicht“
(rough translation: to relieve Messerschmitt-Regensburg in January 1945 major subassemblies for 30 a/c each were handed over to repairworks Flumann at Wertheim and Wels”. None of these rigged-up a/c was delivered up to 10. February 1945”

The term “Großbauteile” regularily is connected to larger prefabricated parts of an a/c, for example the fully equipped fuselage including the cockpit, the complete wings, the engine with all necessary equipment and with its cowlings attached (“Triebwerk”). This explains, why the K-4s at Wertheim were without engines. Flumanns task was to fit “ready to use” Triebwerke and wings to the fuselage, to built in weapons and radio and to do the regular works on Einflug and Abnahme. Also “aufgerüstet” points towards some “putting together” of parts, not real production of any kind.


Another thing:

Looking at the foto of the tunnel-entrance, I consider, that the tunnel itself was quite narrow. The tunnels at Tisnov or at Gevelsberg were much broader. Installing machines and tools for wing-repair perhaps was possible, but not for fuselages and certainly not for wings and fuselages at the same time. I think, we have to look for other facilities around the Schlossbergtunnel, perhaps some wooden buildings in the forrest or some of the hangars of the Wertheim Fliegerhorst.

HTH

Carl

[ouidjat]

Hello,
At least, Carl, Marc-André last post (#48) has the advantage to make the point of the situation, and yours to point there is a little bit more to dig further in these "fouilles curieuses"! Sorry pals it's a french archeologist joke (I don't know in Swizerland), cannot translate... except "strange diggings" but it's not a joke anymore.
Anyway, do you know, friends, any picture showing (belly landed for example) a BF109K-4 in full/complete assembled condition wearing this famous snake band?
Regards,
Franck.