355 FG engagements w/experten

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Richard Mills

kb

Thank you very much indeed for the additional information concerning IV./JG3 and Rolf Steinke. This has helped immeasurably in allowing a picture to be formed around Rolf Steinke's last day.

I take it from yours and previous posts that the FG providing escort cover in this axis of Operation was indeed the 352 FG?

This being the case, are there any pointers as to where I can look to see which BG's on 29-Apr-44 and were consequently covered by the 352 FG?

Any help in this matter really will be very much appreciated indeed.

Regards Richard.

Abbot was leading 328FS/352FG on this day. He could not locate his assigned B-17s (almost certainly 3rdBD- 1st TF) attacking Berlin, then Magdebird. He led his squadron down to attack airfields. He led the squadron west from Neuhaldersleben and encountered a 109 coming from west to east..

He shot it down but it was too low for the pilot to bail out and it crash landed at high speed.

[kb]

He managed to bail out but was too low for his parachute to deploy.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by kb

He managed to bail out but was too low for his parachute to deploy.

"..and I followed, hitting him with another burst. Right after that he jettisoned his canopy, preparing to bail out but the aircraft was too low to the ground. His aircraft then hit the ground while still doing 250mph and tumbled along while pieces flew in every direction."

quote page 69 Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney.

Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?

[kb]

[quote/]Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?[/quote]

The loss record says crashed 1 km southwest of Magdeburg. FSA= fallschirmabsprung (parachuted), zu tief (too low)

Who knows, perhaps he was thrown from the plane on impact and his parachute deployed then?

[Richard Mills]

Originally Posted by drgondog

"..and I followed, hitting him with another burst. Right after that he jettisoned his canopy, preparing to bail out but the aircraft was too low to the ground. His aircraft then hit the ground while still doing 250mph and tumbled along while pieces flew in every direction."

quote page 69 Blue Nosed Bastards of Bodney.

Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?

Originally Posted by kb

[quote/]Kb - was there another eyewitness report saying he actually bailed out?

The loss record says crashed 1 km southwest of Magdeburg. FSA= fallschirmabsprung (parachuted), zu tief (too low)

Who knows, perhaps he was thrown from the plane on impact and his parachute deployed then?[/quote]

Gents

Thank you for your continued help with my original question concerning Steinke.

Before I get too excited and declare in my mind that it was definatly Abbot who shot down Steinke, I would like to go over a couple of points with you both:

The axis of operations around Magdeburg where Steinke came down was definatly covered by the 352 FG? Is it possible another FG could of been operating in that area?

As IV./JG3 lost 3 Bf-109 aircraft on 29-Apr-44, could Abbot's kill possibly be one other than Steinke?

I have to say, with what has been posted already, I am hoping against hope on this one that it was Abbot however, I really am in the hands of you people who obviously have a wealth of knowledge on the sunject.

Gents, please put me out of my misery here, can all angles be covered in pinning Abbot's kill on to Rolf Steinke?

Your continued help really is appreciated.

Regards Richard.

[drgondog]

Originally Posted by Richard Mills

The loss record says crashed 1 km southwest of Magdeburg. FSA= fallschirmabsprung (parachuted), zu tief (too low)

Who knows, perhaps he was thrown from the plane on impact and his parachute deployed then?

Gents

Thank you for your continued help with my original question concerning Steinke.

Before I get too excited and declare in my mind that it was definatly Abbot who shot down Steinke, I would like to go over a couple of points with you both:

The axis of operations around Magdeburg where Steinke came down was definatly covered by the 352 FG? Is it possible another FG could of been operating in that area?

As IV./JG3 lost 3 Bf-109 aircraft on 29-Apr-44, could Abbot's kill possibly be one other than Steinke?

I have to say, with what has been posted already, I am hoping against hope on this one that it was Abbot however, I really am in the hands of you people who obviously have a wealth of knowledge on the sunject.

Gents, please put me out of my misery here, can all angles be covered in pinning Abbot's kill on to Rolf Steinke?

Your continued help really is appreciated.

Regards Richard.[/quote]

First - Kb either scenario works for me - high speed crash landings frequently threw the pilot and as he had punched his canopy at the very minimum he probably had loosened his seat belt/harness.

Richard - IMHO there is very little chance that one could match Abbott to Steinke unless a.) this location near Magdeburg is pretty close to Neuhaldensleben airfield and b.) no other 109s went down that close to same claim/award location to perhaps B-17 gunners.

As there was no other Mustang/109 claim against JG3 attacking B-17s in Magdeburg area it is probable that B-17 gunners actually matched a claim to two 109 kills if two or more IV./JG3 went down in that area..There were however credits for 109s from Brunswick through Steinhuder Lake to Stendal, Brandenburg and Berlin

ALL the other 109 credits (including 9th AF) were essentially in a straight line from east of Hannover to Berlin area. Only the 352nd FG were awarded a credit for a 109 and 190 in the general area of Magdeburg south of Berlin...

Last answer to question. The 328FS/352nn FG led by Abbott probably assigned to escort the smaller strike force of the 3rd BD attacking Magdeburg. There were too few long rang escorts to devote more than one group to a 'branch target' when the main target was Berlin... so highly probable that the 352nd was the assigned group to the attacking 381st and 447th BG's.

This was one of the 8th BC worst days (comparable to May12) for poor navigation and route execution. Several FGs orbited for close to an hour (including the 355th and 352nd at theri assigned R/V points waiting for their bombers to show up.

If you can get your hands on the 8th AF Fighter Command Mission Summary for 8th FC FO 320, it will be a complete roll up of all the individual FG assignments and results, including 9th AF and RAF units involved...

[kb]

Gents

Thank you for your continued help with my original question concerning Steinke.

Before I get too excited and declare in my mind that it was definatly Abbot who shot down Steinke, I would like to go over a couple of points with you both:

The axis of operations around Magdeburg where Steinke came down was definatly covered by the 352 FG? Is it possible another FG could of been operating in that area?

As IV./JG3 lost 3 Bf-109 aircraft on 29-Apr-44, could Abbot's kill possibly be one other than Steinke?

I have to say, with what has been posted already, I am hoping against hope on this one that it was Abbot however, I really am in the hands of you people who obviously have a wealth of knowledge on the sunject.

Gents, please put me out of my misery here, can all angles be covered in pinning Abbot's kill on to Rolf Steinke?

Your continued help really is appreciated.

Regards Richard.

I doubt given the passage of time and fragmentary information on the circumstances of Steinke's demise you'll ever be able to reliably link Abbot to Steinke.

Steinke may have indeed been Abbot's victim, or could have been attempting to nurse a damaged aircraft to an airfield from an engagement along the bomber track further north.

You might want to try sending a PM to Herr Prien, who is a member of this forum; perhaps he has some more definitive information.

[Richard Mills]

Originally Posted by drgondog

First - Kb either scenario works for me - high speed crash landings frequently threw the pilot and as he had punched his canopy at the very minimum he probably had loosened his seat belt/harness.

Richard - IMHO there is very little chance that one could match Abbott to Steinke unless a.) this location near Magdeburg is pretty close to Neuhaldensleben airfield and b.) no other 109s went down that close to same claim/award location to perhaps B-17 gunners.

As there was no other Mustang/109 claim against JG3 attacking B-17s in Magdeburg area it is probable that B-17 gunners actually matched a claim to two 109 kills if two or more IV./JG3 went down in that area..There were however credits for 109s from Brunswick through Steinhuder Lake to Stendal, Brandenburg and Berlin

ALL the other 109 credits (including 9th AF) were essentially in a straight line from east of Hannover to Berlin area. Only the 352nd FG were awarded a credit for a 109 and 190 in the general area of Magdeburg south of Berlin...

Last answer to question. The 328FS/352nn FG led by Abbott probably assigned to escort the smaller strike force of the 3rd BD attacking Magdeburg. There were too few long rang escorts to devote more than one group to a 'branch target' when the main target was Berlin... so highly probable that the 352nd was the assigned group to the attacking 381st and 447th BG's.

This was one of the 8th BC worst days (comparable to May12) for poor navigation and route execution. Several FGs orbited for close to an hour (including the 355th and 352nd at theri assigned R/V points waiting for their bombers to show up.

If you can get your hands on the 8th AF Fighter Command Mission Summary for 8th FC FO 320, it will be a complete roll up of all the individual FG assignments and results, including 9th AF and RAF units involved...

Originally Posted by kb

I doubt given the passage of time and fragmentary information on the circumstances of Steinke's demise you'll ever be able to reliably link Abbot to Steinke.

Steinke may have indeed been Abbot's victim, or could have been attempting to nurse a damaged aircraft to an airfield from an engagement along the bomber track further north.

You might want to try sending a PM to Herr Prien, who is a member of this forum; perhaps he has some more definitive information.

Gents

I really appreciate your help with my questions concerning Rolf Steinke.

Steinke's aircraft crashed 1 km SW of Magdeberg, yet (according to Google maps) Neuhaldersleben where Abott shot down his Bf-109 is 23 km NW of Magdeberg. Is it conceivable that in the time it took to engage Steinke's aircraft with 2 seperate bursts of machine gun fire, that his aircraft could travel that distance?

I need to ascertain from Herr Preins IV./JG3 book the details of the other 2 Bf-109 aircraft lost that day. I shall PM Heer Prein to maybe see if he can shed any light on this matter, he may be able to help so it is worth asking the question.

I may not be able to pin the kill claimed by Abott onto Steinke as his victim however, I want to cover all angles in determining as much as I possibly can.

Finally, can you give me a pointer as to where I can start to look for the 8th AF Fighter Command Mission Summary for 8th FC FO 320?

Thanks again Gents.

Regards Richard.