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  #11  
Old 8th March 2015, 03:59
markozg markozg is offline
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force

Jerome,
there are some new foundings about this topic in Croatia. Czech crew who claim they flew a modern bomber, as David said are right. After all they knew what they flew and there are also many eyewitnesses in Croatia to confirm this fact.
But let's go in time order.
The unit from which Czech crew defected was equipped with Amiot 351 and 354 bombers, some of them camouflaged and some left in bare metal.
This type of aircraft had sufficient range to be able to reach Zagreb airport where it landed, while Amiot 143 could not do that - this is the 1st proof.
When the aircraft reached Zagreb, a young pilot was in the air making his training flight in Rogozarski PVT. This man was future post-war Yugoslav Air Force general Rendulic. In his memoires he recalls that a beautiful all-silver twin-engined aircraft popped out of the cloud and almost collided with him.
I spoke with Mr.Rendulic at his home several years ago and showed him some photos. Without any doubt he pointed at Amiot 351 as the aircraft he saw. - that is the 2nd proof.
Statements of the Czech crew - 3rd proof
In one of the stories long ago, there was a small note that citizens and passengers present on that day on the Borongaj airfield in Zagreb witnessed landing of modern sleek and beautiful shiny all-silver French bomber on the airfield. - 4th proof
Croatian Air Force pilot Ivan Matiegka who crashed in Caproni Ca.310 during one of his flights remembers "a beautiful French plane which was kept at the end of Rajlovac airbase and which wasn't flown by anybody" during his career at Rajlovac. Amiot 351 is certainly beautiful, while 143 is certainly not. -5th proof
You will notice that several reports refer to this airplane as beautiful and that is a very strong hint towards the type. Also in 1940 all silver 351/354 were not uncommon, while the bare metal 143 would be a rarity, especially from operational unit.
Now unfortunately there are still no photos but based on these facts we have at least some progress in this topic.

Best regards,

Marko

Last edited by markozg; 8th March 2015 at 15:47.
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  #12  
Old 8th March 2015, 15:56
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force

Hi Marko,

Great information on the Croatian Amiot. Here are some extracts from the excellent work cited below, which was written exclusively from wartime Croatian AF documents in Arhiv Hrvatska on the Sava cesta in Zagreb. Frka’s book has hundreds of photos of Croatian AF aircraft but not one of the Amiot. This a/c was delivered from Kraljevo to Rajlovac between August and November 1941.

p.35 shows 8th Sqdn./3d Bomber Group (8. Jato/3. Skupina) with CA. 310s, Bristol Blenheim Is and a single Amiot 143M) at Sarajevo-Rajlovac throughout 1942. The commander of 8th Sqdn. during all of 1942 was Satnik (Capt.) Ibrahim Sijerčić.
p.297 states that it was an Amiot 143M, Croatian series number 1701 (1 = Bomber, 7 = Amiot, 01 = number in the series and shows that there was only one of these in possession of the CAF). This number was painted in large black letters on the side of the fuselage between the cockpit and the tail (p.51).

So we have a conflict here between your information and that from original Croatian AF documents.

Source:
Frka, Danijel, Josip Novak and Siniša Pogačić. La Force Aérienne Croate 1941 – 1945. Collection Histoire de L’Aviation Nº 10. Outreau (France): Editions Lela Presse, 2000. ISBN: 953-97564-0-4. Oversize Hb (heavy card cover). 303p. Profusely illus. Maps. Dwgs. Color profiles. Bibliography. Appendices.



You referred to Rendulić as the “future post-war Yugoslav Air Force general Rendulić” so I suspect he may be the second fellow shown below? Do you happen to recall his first name? The chief of the wartime Croatian Air Force in Zagreb was Pukovnik Adalbert Rogulja who was sentenced to 10 years following trial in Zagreb and subsequently died in Stara Gradiška Prison.

RENDULIĆ, ? . 01.11.42 Gend. Podpukovnik, appointed director of instruction at the Central Gendarmerie School in Bjelovar.
RENDULIĆ, ? . 03.09.44 AF Zastavnik, said to have attended the Borovo Flying School from 01.44 to 07.44 and then assigned to the 2d Air Group at Sarajevo Rajlovac.

L.
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  #13  
Old 9th March 2015, 01:49
markozg markozg is offline
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force

Hi Larry,
information are not in conflict but rather new findings vs. old ones.
In Kingdom of Yugoslavia this Amiot was referred to as "Airplane X" in all documents to hide its existance. In later Croatian documents it was referred simply as "Amiot" so documents do not reveal its identity. How did it come to the situation that historians thought it was Amiot 143 is beyond my knowledge. What happened later is usual situation when every new author simply copies some information from his forerunners and after several rounds of copying it becomes "the fact". That is how we were all led to thinking this was Amiot 143. I repeat, no official document from that time mentions designation "143" for this airplane, although it doesn't mention "351" either.
The eyewitness I quoted is Zlatko Rendulic who joined partisans in summer 1943 and attended further flying courses in Soviet Union during the war. In post war period he was one of the most important experts for aviation in Yugoslavia and was resposible for selection of aircraft types for purchase as well as very successfull indigenous designs like Galeb and Jastreb.
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  #14  
Old 9th March 2015, 14:01
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force

Hi Marko,

Many thanks for your most interesting and edifying reply. You are entirely correct about how a historical error gets published once, twice and then set in concrete as fact the third and subsequent times it's published. World War II history is riddled with examples of this.

Incidentally, the Amiot seems to have "disappeared" during the first half of 1943 when it no longer appears in any of the Croatian aircraft listings. Frka makes no mention of it after 31 Dec 42, nor does General-potpukovnik avijacije Vojislav Mikić is his multi-part series on the 1941-45 air war over the NDH and BiH published in Vojnoistorijski Glasnik 1986-88. So I am guessing it was struck from the inventory of active aircraft? Shoved into a hangar and forgotten? Scrapped? Any idea what happened to it?

L.
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  #15  
Old 11th March 2015, 21:55
markozg markozg is offline
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force

According to one source it was expended as a decoy on airfield for Allied bombers.
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  #16  
Old 11th March 2015, 22:28
Larry deZeng Larry deZeng is offline
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force

Thanks, makes sense. Balkan Air Force and others began flying a lot of strafing runs on Rajlovac in 1944, so the Amiot would have made a juicy decoy target.

L.
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  #17  
Old 30th September 2015, 22:38
Jerome Ribeiro Jerome Ribeiro is offline
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Re: Amiot 143M in Croatian Air force

Hi Marko & Larry,

Thanking you for additional information and comments re this unknown Amiot. From my side I just (re)starting the Amiot 351/354 list to track ea. A/C with activity and fate to determine potential candidate to Rajlovac. For the moment no convincing evidence.
In the meantime I am crossing my finger to find someday on the well-known auction site german or allies photos on this Amiot
Best Regards
Jérôme
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