P-38 losses, southern Greece 15/17 November,1943

[Nokose]

Interesting! How many P-38's were damaged and to what extent? Also confirming the down location in mountain and rough terrain is rather difficult (I've read articles were planes are still being dug out of the ground). Also there was the danger of partisans as already mentioned.

[Dan Johnson]

Originally Posted by Nokose

Interesting! How many P-38's were damaged and to what extent? Also confirming the down location in mountain and rough terrain is rather difficult (I've read articles were planes are still being dug out of the ground). Also there was the danger of partisans as already mentioned.

One 82nd 38 lost an engine due to mechanical failure but returned to base. No others damaged that I can find in the 1st, 82nd, or 14th FG histories.

[Oberst]

personally I think a bunch of -38s were damaged by e/a and mistaken as kills. I can't prove it.. just a hunch.

[NickM]

Originally Posted by Oberst

personally I think a bunch of -38s were damaged by e/a and mistaken as kills. I can't prove it.. just a hunch.

One of the advantages of having two engines, maybe? One smokes & gets feathered while the other one keeps running & still gets the plane back to Foggia?

NM

[Dan Johnson]

Originally Posted by Oberst

personally I think a bunch of -38s were damaged by e/a and mistaken as kills. I can't prove it.. just a hunch.

Well the Group histories of all three 38 Groups, seem to mention damaged birds when it happened, and there is nothing mentioned. That the single engined bird is mentioned clearly. Since it got home too, why mention it and not a bunch of damaged 38s?

Not quite sure why they'd hide it.

Seems to me that the Luftwaffe guys saw what they wanted to see that day and were wrong

[Juha]

Hello Nokose
IMHO its a bit odd that Germans didn’t wonder what happened to all those P-38 pilots. It’s statistically odd if all those 14 pilots claimed to be shot down on 15 Nov 43 would have been killed and only one body would have been found and probably even that that all survivors would have evaded. From strike photo one sees that even the reported heavy overcast was all above the B-25s at least over the Kalamaki a/f (the target). And it was a medium altitude (11.700ft) level bombing attack and bomber crews were able to make observation on shipping and on an a/f on route into and out from the target area, so parachutes should have been seen from fairly far away.

IMHO this and other similar cases show that there were lapses in LW’s theoretically very strict claim confirmation procedures and that there were problematic LW units when one speaks on claim accuracy, like IV./JG 27 in Greece and for ex II./JG 2 in Tunisia. On the other hand there were units which claims were quite accurate, for ex the claims of II./JG 51 against P-38s in Tunisia.

Juha

[Kryten]

has anyone considered this was all part of the propaganda war?
all for german consumption at home where news of the war turning against the Nazis could be "lost" under stories of daring do and German superiority?

[Oberst]

of course. but we must eliminate every other possibility first.

[Dan Johnson]

Originally Posted by Oberst

of course. but we must eliminate every other possibility first.

What part of the single 38 lost in two days vs the 19 claimed isn't clear? We've got one other returning single engine after mechanical failure, not enemy action.

Damaged 38s were not falling out of the sky

Bartels didn't shoot down 7 38s in 2 days. Of this there is no doubt.

[Nokose]

Yes, I'm sure propaganda played something to do with it. Also gaining promontions and fame with what comes with that, as they were like every other human. I'm not sure unit histories were going to give the damage reports other then major. Also in air combat if you make hits and they dive away, your not going to try to follow them down with other threats around you.