Bf 109G-10 130xxx Batch

[Oberst]

Hello Leo,

Yes the Bf 109G-10 came with either the Type 100 or 110 cowl. Also, some in the 490 000 - 490 800 Erla batch also used the small mains & long tail wheel, along with 130000 – 130500 Messerschmitt-Regensburg G-10's. Do you have a source for G-10's that flew with JG 27? I have only a couple, the one previously mentioned in post #9 and Bf 109G-10/AS W.Nr. 'yellow 24' of 6./JG 27, an Erla Built machine with a highly modified camouflage scheme. Thanks for the added information by the way.

[veltro]

I'm sorry to intervene, but there are a lot of old myths and wrong facts that (in complete good faith) have surfaced in this thread about the Bf 109G-10.

Concerning the listings of Werke Nummern published several years ago by Prien in his otherwise excellent book, very little was known at the time about the G-10s produced by Erla, so at the time it was thought that their external look was due to the use of DB 605AS engines instead of "D" ones...

Documents and material emerged since then have allowed to ascertain that all the G-10 built by Erla (apart from a mere 50) were equipped with the DB 605D engine and that the "look" was in reality due to Erla's experimental redesign of the nose section.

Concerning instead what apparently reported in Lynn Ritger's book, here too we have some old "myths" as the one seeing the G-10 as an "Arlequin" version, spread over.

Excellent researchers like Charles Bavaroise and the one posting here as "Rasmussen" have studied late Bf 109 production for decades and have discovered material and documents proving beyond doubts that - for instance - the fuselages used by Erla in the G-10 production were of new build, as evidenced by the serials attached to them (not Werke Nummern, but production serials). Personally I have been able to see one of such listings.

That story about old Bf 109s "recycled" as G-10s has been debunked long since, but the fact that it still goes to print and circulates (as well as the non-existing "G-10/AS" versions still lingering around), certainly gives food for thought...

[Oberst]

No need to appologies, thanks for posting further information. I know that it wasn't officially designated as a Bf 109G-10/AS. I also know that G-10 were brand new airframes, even though Erla called it a 'bastard aircraft' or something simular. maybe thats where the confusion started?

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Many thanks to D'Amico for correcting the error included in the reference that I mentioned regarding that the Bf 109 G-10 sub-type were rebuilds of earlier fuselages. I will take this opportunity to ask him if the inclusion of Bf 109 G-10/AS fighters in such references as the loss list included in the Prien JG 1/JG 11 volume are incorrect? The best known example would probably be:

24 December 1944: Hauptmann Erich Woitke, Gruppenkommandeur of III./JG 1, killed in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Grey 20" (W.Nr. 490 723) in aerial combat with Spitfire fighters, Aachen area, 100%

Or might these be examples of the few Erla built machines that were fitted with the DB 605 AS engine? Regarding Bf 109 G-10 fighters that flew with JG 27 I do have access to a lost list of this unit in which this sub-type is mentioned. Any corrections to existing errors is gratefully accepted.

Horrido!

Leo

[veltro]

Mr. Etgen,

being unable to have access to the original reference of the loss quoted, I can only guess that at the time of publication of the cited work (1993-1995) the area sorrounding the Erla-built G-10 being still somewhat murky, so that it could have been assumed by the authors that all the G-10s in that production batch were "G-10/AS" and the loss edited accordingly.

Of course there is also the possibility that in the original document the loss was listed as such, although I personally never saw such a definition on original Luftwaffe papers...

[Charles Bavarois]

Hello Guys,

good old G-10/AS! A never ending story. He my two cents:

Hptm. Erich Woitkes aircraft was reported like Bf 109 G-14 (!), WNr. 490723 in his NVM, clearly an error by the clerc.

JG 27 reported lots of G-6/AS and G-14/AS, but only regular G-10s, no G-10/AS at all.

It was technically possible to fit a DB605 AS engine to an airframe instead of the DB605 D. I assume, this was done at the flying units sometimes, as we do have reports of Bf 109 G-10s with AS-engines at NAGr. 14 und also on Italian a/c captured at the end of the war. NAGr. 14s aircraft had different flying times for engines and airframes, a hint, that the engine was changed somewhen. From a pure administrative point of view this aircraft may indeed be called "G-10/AS"!

As for the Erla G-10s with AS-engines we should wait for Rasmussen, who will enlight us with his knowlegde on Leipzigs production-plans. As far as I remember, there were very few Erla G-10 equipped with AS-engines, perhaps due to a shortage in D-engines? Rasmussen can tell us, whether this was done at the producer or sometimes later.

And at last: III./JG 300 did report Bf 109 G-10/ASM in its NVM late December 44 and early 1945 and this is the only time I came across a G-10/AS in an original German document. The Werknummern all were of Erla-production (490.216, 490.224, 490.299, 490.323 and 490.438). The reports of this Gruppe are remarkably detailed and include "regular" G-10s as much as G-14/AS and G-14s spread between those G-10/AS. So IMHO no typing error. Perhaps Rasmussen can figure out the exact production time of this a/c.

HTH

Carl

[Oberst]

thanks a great 2 cents worth of opinion, many thanks!

Leo, the JG 27 lost list for G-10's would be great to see. Please post them!

[Leo Etgen]

Hi guys

Many thanks for the information posted earlier. So it appears that the loss list entry for Woitke might be correct and that he possibly was flying one of the very few DB 605 AS powered Bf 109 G-10 fighters on his final mission. The only way to make sure would be to come across a list of Erla production plans that would specify which aircraft received which engine if such exists. Oberst, here are the losses of Bf 109 G-10 fighters suffered by 15./JG 27. I hope that you find this useful for your purposes.

26 November 1944: Unteroffizier Jakob Bäuerle of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 (W.Nr. 490 407) in aerial combat, crashed in Lastrup/Vechta area, 100%

5 December 1944: Feldwebel Rudolf Schiller of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 (W.Nr. 490 682) in aerial combat, crashed in Gladbeck area, 100%

23 December 1944: Oberfeldwebel Heinrich Bartels of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 13" (W.Nr. 130 359) in aerial combat with P-47 fighter, crashed at Villip near Bad Godesberg, 100%

25 December 1944: Unteroffizier Franz Schmitt of 15./JG 27, wounded in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 8" (W.Nr. 490 188) in aerial combat, unknown location, 100%

27 December 1944: Oberfähnrich Rolf Brandt of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 2" (W.Nr. 490 741) in aerial combat, unknown location, 100%

29 December 1944: Fähnrich Ferdinand Miebach of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Black 10" (W.Nr. 490 699) in aerial combat, crashed near Altstätte, 100%

11 February 1945: Oberfähnrich Werner Müller of 15./JG 27, injured in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 3" (W.Nr. 490 210), somersaulted while landing at Münster-Handorf, 60%

22 February 1945: Hauptmann Günther Grapp, Staffelkapitän of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 14" (W.Nr. 130 366) in aerial combat, crashed north of Amelsbüren, 100%

25 February 1945: Leutnant Rolf Berendt of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 11" (W.Nr. 491 376) in aerial combat in Vörden area, 100%

25 February 1945: Unteroffizier Herbert Kronis of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 6" (W.Nr. 130 387) in aerial combat, crashed at Thiene near Hesepe, 100%

19 March 1945: Oberleutnant Josef Sohlbach of 15./JG 27, killed in Bf 109 G-10 "Yellow 15" in aerial combat with P-51 fighters near Vörden, 100%

Note that the 29 December 1944 incident involved an aircraft of 14./JG 27.

Horrido!

Leo

[Rasmussen]

Originally Posted by Leo Etgen

The only way to make sure would be to come across a list of Erla production plans that would specify which aircraft received which engine if such exists.

Unfortunately Erla never used the designation "G-10/AS" official --- in all documents I ever saw the machines were named "G-10" or "G-10/R6" (the known G-10 with DB 605AS included). I'd guess the designation "G-10/AS" was used on unit level only - from time to time (if the machine had another engine than an DB 605D).

To get certain informations is difficult because the factory archive got some direct hits during the raids in 1943 - 1945. The most of surviving documents was destroyed after the war --- after the liquidation of the firm. They had other problems to safe "old" documents.

Regarding the other points I have to check the documents again.

Best regards
Rasmussen

[Leo Etgen]

Hello Rasmussen

Many thanks for your information. It therefore appears that only through the unit reports can it be possible to determine if a Bf 109 G-10 was one of the AS powered types or not. In case that anyone would be interested here are the Bf 109 G-10/AS included in the JG 1 loss list apart from Woitke:

5 December 1944: Oberfähnrich Hans-Werner Kroll of 12./JG 1, killed in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 3" (W.Nr. 490 625) in aerial combat with P-51 fighters, crashed near Zehdenick/Pommern, 100%

17 December 1944: Leutnant Ottokar Henning of 12./JG 1, injured in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 4" (W.Nr. 490 740) in crash on take-off at Anklam, 100%

25 December 1944: Leutnant Hans-Adolf Halbey of 12./JG 1, wounded in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 5" (W.Nr. 490 663) in aerial combat, crashed near Nettersheim, bailed out, 100%

25 December 1944: Oberfeldwebel Otto Soetbeer of 12./JG 1, wounded in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 2" (W.Nr. 490 653) in aerial combat with four-engined bomber in Lüttich area, 100%

25 December 1944: Leutnant Jakob Schneider of 12./JG 1, killed in Bf 109 G-10/AS "Blue 6" (W.Nr. 490 665) in aerial combat with four-engined bomber in Lüttich area, 100%

Note that all are stated to have flown with 12./JG 1 apart of the Woitke machine which was on strength with the Gruppenstab. It would be interesting to determine if indeed these were the rare version that they are purported to be.

Horrido!

Leo