UNKNOWN LUFTWAFFE BOMBER

[Chris Goss]

Still doesn't look right to me albeit I agree with Ed's analysis. Band would indicate KG 2 but nothing matches Sep 40-1941

[Larry Hickey]

Hello,

One of our EoE Researchers has located two photos of what must be this a/c in the EoE Photo DB. There were two photos posted on the "TOCH Luftwaffe Board Post by Volker_DO4NC 6-29-08" showing U5+FS, of 8./KG2 FL in the sand on a French beach with the rear fuselage shot to hell from a fighter attack.

My notes with these photos: "Source lives in Heidelberg, Germany, and his grandfather apparently worked for the Dornier factory during the war, as a civilian. There were a number of 8./KG2 Do17Zs that returned damaged from England on 8/13/40 with wounded crewmen. This was probably one of them. Another possible date is 9/15/40; three of that crew were KIA." So two good date possibilities here: 13.08.40 or 15.09.40. I'd sure like to pin this down to the correct one, either one of these or some other date. I consider this a candidate for one of our EoE Color Profile a/c.

Regarding the strange effect on the stbd prop blade, I fully agree with Ed North's interpretation of the mirror image in the water. Nicely spotted ED. I also agree with the idea that sand layering due to the tides accounts for the strange striations on the nose and engine nacelle, which are magnified on the image by the mirror effects on the surface of the pool of water.

We're getting a lot closer on this one.

Regards,

Larry Hickey
EoE Project Coordinator

[Chris Goss]

From what I can see, none of the 8/KG 2 ac lost on 13 Aug 40 were more than 20% apart from the one that came down at Whitstable. There was a U5+FS lost 15 Sep 40 with 3 missing and one killed. Location for this is 'Kanal' but I cannot see how 3 missing and one killed could match the ac in the photo?? However, I stand by to be corrected!

[edNorth]

Thanks all for the compliments. August 1940 to me seems plauseble.
Just my two cents here: Them "stripes" on engine cowlings and fuselage sides suggest to me there was very hot weather when this happened, i.e. lots of evaporation, and August 1940 was hot (!?!) - and another thing: A normal belly landing usually was about 20%, at least when Ju 88´s were involved. Now suppose, if first report of an Do 17 belly landing on a beach be estimated at 20%, but the info it had been shot up before, did not reach the decision makers (requesting a replacement - untill later) besides it becoming flooded with saltwater and properly ballasted with sand - then probably the amend to 100% never reaching the hardworked GQM clerks. -ed

[Chris Goss]

Ed-plausible I admit. Of the 5 listed on 13 Aug 40, no location is given and as for the 20% one, all it says is Jägerbeschuss, Fw Hermann Schirr (F) wounded. There is a 7/KG 2 loss also with 20% but with the location Calais (no crew listed). How sure are we that it was U5+FS?

[wise62]

hi

from interview of the german witness in 1978, owner of the pictures:

date : october 1940, a/c severely damaged : 270 shots impacts - force-landed on the beach - crew safe

from picture published in local newspaper : a/c D0 17 with KG2 nose bande

from Battle of Britain Then et Now :

24 october 1940 - Do17Z-2 N°2863 - 9/KG2 - severely damaged in fighter attack over England - returned to base : one killed : Gefr SCHINZ, two wounded : Fw BOHNHOFF and Gefr ELBERT.

Any information on this event?

W62

[wise62]

I have forgotten : Do 17z n° 2863 : aircraft a write-off

[edNorth]

Chris- Seems be the same plane on all four photos, unless there were more than one force landing on sandy beaches in the period..
Note combat damage on leading edge of the left horizontal stabilator, visible on both first picture (in this thread) and close up one, but right fin/rudder is missing from photo #1 in this thread. Attached are reverse´s of both them pictures saved from TOCH! June and/or July 2008 period. (I do not know who has copyright to them two, therfore uploaded all to external host)
http://i43.tinypic.com/2u596ye.jpg
http://i43.tinypic.com/e04aoz.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/k4azcn.jpg
Loss record for Do 17 Z-2 2863 confirmes 9 Staffel (U5+ T) so not conclusive the same in my mind.
Ref: BA-MA RL 2 III/1175 Page 1, report date 1940-10-25.

[Chris Goss]

The 24 Oct 40 was was indeed 9/KG 2 and reputed to be Cambrai which is nowhere near the coast.....

[markjsheppard]

Agree with Ed,
% damaged were sometimes changed. It could have been 20% initially and salvagable but this might not have occurred. Both Bf109E-4 3579 and Bf110F-2 5252 had incorrect or changed % damaged subject to whether it was initially going to be recovered and might not have been in the end.

I agree if it is on the beach and eventually swamped I would expect it to be 100%.

Again, not every loss seems to have been recorded even with reports and eye witnesses but this is digressing.

regards

Mark