Johannes Steinhoff victories

[Alfred.MONZAT]

I too bump that quite old thread as I found confusing those JG 7 victories from Johannes Steinhoff:

Originally Posted by Johannes

27th February 1945 2 X Jak-9 Nr.163-164 Stab./Jg7

20th March 1945 Il-2 Nr.165 Stab./Jg7

Coming from you Johannes I'm inclined to believe they are legitimate but most sources tells JG 7 was engaged in the West on those days (was it JV 44 for the 20th March?). Soviets first sighting of Me 262 occured in mid-February and they scored a single victory on 22 March before real confrontations occured between the VVS and german jets from 27 April 1945 onward. Were there any jet victories over Soviet aircraft before that or that's just Steinhoff and his three victories?

[Broncazonk]

Originally Posted by Johannes

He [Steinhoff] once shot down a Russian fighter, the pilot baled-out, he submitted his claim form stating that he didn't actually see the aircraft crash, they wrote back asking why you should think that they would uphold a claim when you admit you didn't see it crash, Steinhoff wrote back, "I just assumed that a pilotless aircraft didn't fly it's self back to base and land safely".....they replied, "Unconfirmed" !!

Regards

Johannes

Hmmm..... That story changes things for me. If Directive 55270/41 (Confirmation of Aerial Victories) was being interpreted that strictly--that stupidly--that absurdly--then overclaiming from time to time by Jagdwaffe pilots was a fair and just thing to do.

Simply said, after some desk-bound, pencil-necked, jerkoff clown did that to me once, just once, I would be overclaiming every chance I got. Let me get this straight: I'm outnumbered in the air (and risking my life) almost every day to shoot down enemy machines, and when I do, some moron back at headquarters is going to treat me like this? Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

If I was Johannes Steinhoff, I would have written a letter to the Führer informing him of the situation. I would have enclosed the previous letters and suggested that the clerks who made the decision to deny my claim (and wrote those letters to me) BE SHOT for demoralizing the Luftwaffe fighter arm.

Bronc

[Johannes]

Hi

With Steinhoff we are fortunate, not only does his flugbuch survive, but also an abschüßelist, which lists 178 confirmed victories, though there is a duplication slip-up in it reducing it to 176 confirmed victories, or 176 victories Steinhoff thought were confirmed. Don't know why his claims over Romania were not confirmed, Peter Düttmann got his confirmed.

I have not heard any rumours about reliability of claims regarding Steinhoff, so we can assume that this very high scoring pilot was one of the honest top guys, and with very big scorers about half were shall we say were less than honest.

Regarding his unconfirmed claims, and not pursuing them, I guess having so many, it just wasn't a big deal/thing for him. Otherwise he was outspoken enough to have caused a few small waves.

Keep well

Johannes

[Stig Jarlevik]

Just out of curiosity how can one individual looking in Steinhoff's log book find
"In his Flugbuch are 2 Claims on the 29.09.1944. Flight 1097 from Piscolt to Klausenburg (11.15 - 13.45 Uhr), Me Bf 109 G WNr.780890" (as seen by Christian)

while Johannes equally certain states "Steinhoff made no claim for 29th September 1944"?

Cheers
Stig

[Karoband]

Is 26 December 1944 the correct date that Steinhoff was dismissed as kommodore of JG 7?

best regards,

Jim

[Edward L. Hsiao]

Gentlemen,

How many Allied planes did Steinhoff shot down with the fighter jet Me-262?

Edward L. Hsiao

[Johannes]

Hi Edward

By memory six with the Me262, the first were against Russian aircraft.

Keep well

Johannes

[Karoband]

Hi Edward,

I have doubts as to Steinhoff having access to a Me 262 of Stab/JG 7 in February and March 1945. Robert Forsyth on page 24 of Jagdverband 44 Squadron of Experten, (2008), quotes Steinhoff: "My old unit, JG 7, was stationed at the same airfield [Brandenburg-Briest], but they had orders from Galland's successor not to lift a finger to help us..."

Jim

[Johannes]

Hi Guys

I have a typed-out version of Steinhoff's flugbuch. Also a list officially complied on 10th June 1944.

At the end of 1941 he was making claims(official list) that are not noted on the typed-out flugbuch.

No two lists ever match for him, be it mikrofilms, official list, or flugbuch.

In his written account his first combat sortie in the Me262 is inferred to be against an Il-2 which he shoots down, the crew escaping a crash-landing into a snow drift. He also mentions the Bf109E in September 1944, which would appear to be missing from his flugbuch.

You would think the flugbuch more likely to be correct as completed shortly after each sortie, though any claims are often under described, often just mentioned as abschüß. This is typical for a flugbuch. With abschüßeliste many are written post-war, but Steinhoff's is dated. One of his September 1944 claims happens on a day when he wasn't even flying according to his flugbuch.

Clearly even official document include mistakes.

Keep well

Johannes

[Stig Jarlevik]

Johannes

Very interesting.
With his typed out Flugbuch, which one do you mean? Surely he must have had more than one. So do you have all of them?

Where are the originals of Steinhoff's Flugbücher kept today?
Did Steinhoff, when still alive, acknowledge the books were his and original?

I am asking since Christian has obviously access to/seen what he claims to be Steinhoff's FB for mission 1097 dated 29 Sep 1944 (see post 14).
If your typed out list for 29 Sep 1944 does not have any claims at all is it possible Christian (or the person who typed your list) has read the wrong date?
You have Steinhoff making two claims 24 Sep 1944, but no further details.
A sloppy digit 4 can easily be read as a digit 9 (or in fact vice versa!)

Steinhoff's final claim with JG 77 was, as per your book, on the 25th and in the Klausenberg area.
If we then look at what Christian quote for the 29th he says specifically from Piscolt to Klausenberg, which to me indicates a transfer flight,
perhaps combined with a mission itself.
That also indicates, unless Stab JG 77 were flying back and forth, the two claims on the 29th actually are those from the 24th. When making his
final JG 77 claim on the 25th, he was already in the Klausenberg area.

More worrying seems to be "official" data does not correspond to the Microfilmed data. I know far too little about how each was made to have any
opinion on that, but I don't like it. They should correspond....

Cheers
Stig