Time over target ~ Peernemunde August 1943

[Smith]

Many thanks Adriano ... just a quick reply, it's a beautiful Autumn Sunday morning here and we're going out to enjoy it.

Mark Simpson also made the observation re. the burial. They were re-interred in Poland after the war's end. At the time they (actually 3 heads and one hand, all the bits that were found!) were buried in the local military cemetery at Swinemunde - as I suspect others from this raid were.

One thing I have learned over time is that Lancasters were a death trap. Night fighters would hit them in the fuel tanks between the engines and the resultant blaze would literally melt the skin of the wing. The aircraft would fly for up to as much as a minute (sometimes the effect was more immediate, eg. control cables severed or severe damage of some form) and then roll and dive as the wing gave up. This particular aircraft (EE147) was seen to dive vertically into the ground. At an accelerating dive up to say 200km/h (vertical) the fall from 1500/2000 metres would have taken 30-45 seconds.

And I do have Middlebrook's book now (on loan from the library) and it does have a picture of the course track. But it's not necessarily to scale or reliable enough in my opinion.

It's interesting your point re. EE-147 being last up. Do you have such a timing and list? That would be valuable as there is a quote in Middlebrook's book about a combat another 619 aircraft had over the target. The likely German counterpart is known for that one. It may be that EE-147 arrived on the scene after that!

In fact I wonder - is it possible to obtain and read debriefing reports of RAF squadrons? And nachtjagd combat reports?

Many thanks, regards Don

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Dear friend Gnome,

Yes, a friend of mine lived in Australia for one year. I saw the pictures, it is indeed a very lovely country and we are pratically on the same parallels, so we do have the same kind of weather...Enjoy it fully!

I have been looking at some facts: If they were buried into the cemetery of Swinemunde, they are supposed to have crashed very near that town, isn´t it? There are only 4 claims that mentions Swinemunde, that is actually a bit more to the WSW of Peenemunde. ( I do not know the Flight Plan for that night, but I guess your uncle´s Lancaster has already bombed and was turning for home when he was shot down...The last claim that mentions Swinemunde is that of Hptm Friedrich-Karl Muller on a single engined Bf 109 G-6 at 01:58hs a Lancaster 10km NW of Swinemunde...nearer to Peenemunde than the other claims...)

I guesstimated that the first leg led the Bomber Stream from England to somewhere to the north of Flensburg. The first victory against the main stream was somewhere there on Westerland.

From Flensburg to Peenemunde there are some 320km in a straight line. If we calculate a cruising speed for the Lanc of 130/140 knots that we give us something like 01:05/01:20h of flying time - withoug any deviation!

I had a small description from one Pathfinder navigator who flew that night with 156 Squadron. The total flying time of their aircraft was 06:30h. I "guesstimated" a first leg of around 02:20hs from England to this point somewhere to the north of Flensburg. It seems - from the German claims - that the RETURN leg also passed around South Denmark ( the last claims all being by NJG 3 and around Sankt Peter, and other towns in that area ).

You told me that the fuselage crashed some 200 meters from the town of Peenemunde. There are at least 17 claims with the only mention of Peenemunde. You also mentioned a combat report from a 619 Squadron on Middlebrook´s book. There are four claims at the same hour, over Peenemunde ( 01:52h and 01:57h ).

Yes, ALL Squadron RECORDS are stored at the Public Record Office at Kew in the UK. They have researches that can help you to find the documents you wish so, but they charge a wealthy charge. If we did know if the aircraft before your uncle´s had returned, we could calculate HIS time over the target...It would be nice to have any clue that would give us the average time for a 619 Squadron aircraft to arrive over the target, this way we could calculate HIS time also.

From my personal opinion, your uncle´s aircraft perhaps was shot down close to Swinemunde ( these 4 particular claims ) and more close to the report published by Middlebrook.

I tried to find out 619 Squadron on the google but got no reply for a kind of Association. Will keep researching the Swinemunde possibility.

Any new I will inform you, ok? Will try to be your co-pilot on this research my friend. Keep warming and enjoy your beautiful country! Friendly as ever ( from Brazil )

Adriano

[Adriano Baumgartner]

PS: No German Recors or NJG Diaries survived the war. There is some DATA at the Bundesarchiv ( Order of Battles from some Squadrons, some losses, some claims also, but no Official Squadron Diary - from what I heard about from the veterans themselves ).

PS2: The researchers at the PRO ( Kew ) are all professionals ( mostly historians, writers, etc..). The fees are worth although very wealthy! The documents are of great help. I received a photocopy of one of those diaries from one Mosquito pilot! It is amazing, giving the take off time, a brief summary of what happened, the name of crews, serial number, etc...).

Hope this will help you also..

Adriano

[Smith]

Thank you Adriano for you help and interest, it is very much appreciated.

I need to sit back a touch and take stock. I have worked through the claims list and narrowed the filed by about half (wrong type of aircraft, distant locations, etc.) and a couple of otheres besides (relying on Middlebrokks secondary statements that aircrew apparently said to him but there's a lot more work to do. I think we can probably get it down to a few probables without undue difficulty.

I am however troubled that my central thesis is to distrust Middlebrook's proposition re. the crash location, but then to rely on him in other statements. It's not an ideal position to adopt.

That said, I believe he made a simple and honest mistake, and I had gone along with it, merely finding the crash location puzzling ... until the recent advent of multimap opened up a more detailed view of the area to me.

I still think it is the more northern Zecherin ... it fits the MRES report better, and there's no good reason for EE147 to be as far off track as Anklam.

I will post some quotes for you, transcribed from original sources by Middlebrook, when I get a chance. But I may have to leave this aside for a few days or weeks as I have a lot on at present.

Many thanks again, regards Don

[nick de carteret]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

I had a small description from one Pathfinder navigator who flew that night with 156 Squadron. The total flying time of their aircraft was 06:30h.

I have the log book of a 207 Squadron w/operator whose Lancaster flew on the Peenemunde raid... he gives a flight time of 06:35h in his log book. Take off noted at 21.40.

[Anne Price]

I have a copy for 619 SQN diary and have pm'd some details _ also recently read an a/c of the peenmunds raid in connection with research on JA 848 crashed a Juterborg Aug 31 1943. Nick Knilans autobiography details weather for various raids, it might be worth contacting RAF Museum at Hendon -the archivist is brilliant. I have combat reports for the sqn (bought from Kew). I'll see if i can find anything

Not that this answers your question but here is my Father's log book entry for this raid. He was with 97 Squadron departing Bourne.

[Smith]

Many thanks Anne and David. Anne I have pm'd you. My apologies to everyone for letting this lie for a while, I am rather busy at work at present, but will return to focus again on this puzzle in a few weeks time. Thanks again, Don

[BillG+4]

So far as I can determine from Middlebrook's book, the last aircraft to bomb did so at 0105 hrs, ten minutes after the planned end of the raid. Apparently eight aircraft in total bombed between 0055 and 0105. Two of the late-comers are identified, 6 are not. It is probably safe to say that EE 147 bombed somewhere between 0041 and 0105 but that's about as close as I would think it's possible to get.
Bill.