Time over target ~ Peernemunde August 1943

[Smith]

I'm hoping to establish some finer details relating to the loss of my Uncle's aircraft, Lancaster EE147 of 619 squadron, on the night of 17/18 August 1943, at Peenemunde.

A key piece of information, which I'm sure must be known or able to be calculated, is the time this aircraft would have been expected over the target. Is there anyone here who has studied, and or has records of, that operation and could advise me on this?

In the first instance, even a simple Wave 1, Wave 2, Wave 3 chronology and where 619 would have been in Wave 3 (that much I know) would help. As I understand it, they were using 5 Group's time and distance technique on the run in to the target, so there would have been some sort of orderly timing. And yes I know, if I had Martin Middlebrook's book I could probably just look it up! But I don't, sorry about that.

many thanks, Don

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Don,

I will try to help, although like you I do not have this book of Middlebrook ( his only book I still do not have ).

Try to find out on this website the information you are looking for by figuring out the TAKE OFF times of each Squadron. So, this way you will have an overall picture:
http://www.lostbombers.co.uk/results...&submit=Search

On the second page of this site, I found the Lancaster PG*P, serial EE147 of your father. Here it goes:

"Serial Range ED303 - EE202 This aircraft was one of 620 lancasters ordered from A.V.Roe (Chadderton) in 1941 and built from Nov42 to Jun43 as 129 Mk.1s and 491 Mk.111s in a mixed production run up to ED782 and all as Mk.111s from ED783 onwards. Mk.1s were initially fitted with Merlin 20 and the Mk.111s with Merlin 28 engines. EE147 was a Mk.111 and was delivered to 619 Sqdn 31May43, joining No.619 Sqdn 8Jul43. Took part in the following Key Operations: With No.617 Sqdn as AJ- L, no Key Operations; with No.619 Sqdn as PG-P, Turin 12/13Jul43; Hamburg 24/25Jul43; Hamburg 27/28Jul43; Hamburg 2/3Aug43; Peenem_nde 17/18Aug43-Lost. No record of total hours. EE147 was one of three 619 Sqdn lancasters lost on this operation. See: ED982; EE147. Airborne 2155 17Aug43 from woodhall Spa. Crashed in the vicinity of anklam-Lassan, Germany. all are now buried in Poland at Poznan Old Garrison Cemetery. P/O A O'Leary RCAF KIA Sgt T.Underdown KIA F/S R.Crossley KIA Sgt J.T.Hubbard KIA Sgt J.H.Shaw KIA Sgt D.G.Cox KIA F/S L.F.English RNZAF KIA "

To calculate the ETO ( Estimated time Over ) of your father´s Lancaster, one would have to have the FLIGHT PLAN for the mission. With that it would be more or less easy ( if we had also the wind information for the night ).

From the Luftwaffe records I find out that Feldwebel Hans Meissner of 6./ NJG 3 claimed a Lancaster at 4.500 meters Nordkuste of Alsten ( the names are very similar although they did not match ). I had to find out a good map of the Area to check out the small German towns...

Actually I would suggest you to check ALL Luftwaffe claims on the following site:http://www.lesbutler.ip3.co.uk/tony/tonywood.htm
Then you can have an overall picture of what happened.

PS: I may say that this site contain a lot of errors, so as you will find out on old threads on this Forum, it is not 100% correct.

I hope I had been able to give you a steering to follow on your researches. I am actually doing this kind of "pationate" job, researching some claims of Luftwaffe night-fighter pilots. It is no easy task with so few information, but checking the Hour, location of crash - one arrives to have a 90% chance of finding the truth.

Sincerely yours I remain

Adriano

PS: If I find out the book of Middlebrook, or any other news, I will share with you. Excuse me if I was unable to answer what you would have liked to hear.

[Adriano Baumgartner]

PS2: Why do not you try to correspond with Martin Middlebrook yourself? He lives in the UK. Maybe Crécy Publishing can gives you his address...I do believe he will help you if he is still alive. He answered me once, a long time ago...

Another suggestion...

[M sIMPSON]

Hi there,
From Martin Middlebrook's book on the Peenemunde attack;
1st wave attack 00.15-00.30 3 Group,4 Group and 33 Pathfinders.
2nd wave attack 00.31-00.42 1 Group and 18 Pathfinders.
3rd wave attack 00.43-00.55 5 Group,6 Group and 18 Pathfinders.
According to Middlebrook, only two of 5 Groups aircraft bombed early,so your uncle's aircraft was probably over the target somewhere between 00.43 and 00.55,British time.
The site of the crash,Anklam-Lassen, is about 50 km south of Peenemunde.
Hope this is of some use'
Regards,Mark.

[Smith]

Thank you Adriano and Mark for your help.

I have corresponded in the past with Martin Middlebrook, but the problem I am facing is that he has the wrong crash site ... so what his book says about the loss of this aircraft is incorrect, which may mean that the combat he attributes to some other Lancaster may in fact be with EE-147. Does that make sense?

I will post what I have re. the location shortly.

regards Don

[Smith]

Originally Posted by M sIMPSON

According to Middlebrook, only two of 5 Groups aircraft bombed early,so your uncle's aircraft was probably over the target somewhere between 00.43 and 00.55,British time.
The site of the crash,Anklam-Lassen, is about 50 km south of Peenemunde.

Here is a summary of what I know regarding the loss of Lancaster EE147, PG-P of 619 squadron during the Peenemünde raid of 17/18 August 1943.

My Uncle, F/sgt L F English RNZAF (rear gunner) and his fellow crew (F/O O’Leary RCAF pilot) lost their lives when their aircraft was shot down in the immediate vicinity of Peenemünde that night.

As I’m sure many of you know, Martin Middlebrook wrote a well received book about this raid and in it he alleges that this aircraft was 29th down, about 30 kms south of the target near Anklam. Mark Simpson refers to this in his post above. Middlebrook is unable to identify what combat resulted in the loss of EE-147.

My conjecture is that this is because he has the wrong location.

We (family) have a copy of an MRES report that identifies another location for the crash. Casualty Enquiry No. G 61, 20 Sept 1945, states inter alia: "According to German documents now in our possession the aircraft crashed 2 kms. north of ZECHERIN and 200 metres from PEENEMÜNDE on the night of 17th/18th August, 1943." BTW I don’t have copies or even references for those original German documents, they may be KE reports.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showpo...63&postcount=9

The breakthrough for me was the wonder of multimap.com. If you look at this location query on multimap
http://www.multimap.com/maps/#t=l&map=53.96792,13.71721|11|4&hloc=DE|zecherin
you can see that there are TWO places named “Zecherin” and I think this is what has lead Middlebrook astray.

One is near Anklam (ie. where Middlebrook suggests) but in no way coincides with the very specific location given by the MRES. The other Zecherin however, is not far south of Peenemunde. Although "2km north of Zecherin" and "200 metres from Peenemunde" does not necessarily make sense if it refers to the town of Peenemunde, which is clearly more than 2km north of the more northerly Zecherin … if it meant 200m from the banks of the river, interpreting Peenemunde as "the mouth of the river Peene", rather than the town, it makes a lot of sense.

That would put the location of the crash SSW of Karlshagen, itself a little south of the (scientist’s) housing estate and the workers camp, both a handful of kilometres south of the rocket facilities, and very much part of the target area. This argues that EE-147 was shot down in the immediate vicinity of the target, either an interception by a night-fighter right over the target (and this did happen) or the aircraft may have been hit by flak over the target and then crashed not long after. Bear in mind the attack was low level, between 5000 and 8000 feet (not metres).

When? Well so far all we know is that 619 squadron, a member of 5 Group, bombed in the last wave of the attack, in part utilising the time-and-distance bombing method. Again, Mark (posting above) quotes Middlebrook as saying the third wave bombed between 00:43am to 00:55am "Britsih Time" I believe the "local" time was one hour later.

I've have a download of Tony Woods' ReichWest claims and there are 17 claims between 1:40am and 2:00am at or near Peenemunde (and more either side of that time-slot). Is there any practical way to weed through them all?

One thing I will do ~ I have been to the library this morning and borrowed Middlebrook's book. He discusses the air battle over the target and includes some personal recollections of Luftwaffe pilots with comments like "the aircraft fell into the sea" and so on. This will rule some out.

And of course, if we are able to narrow the timeslot at all we could perhaps narrow the field. I still wonder if we could establish "time up" or similar for EE-147 and maybe compare that with other aircraft over the target area. Bit of a long shot I know.

Many thanks for all your help, regards Don

[Smith]

Originally Posted by Adriano Baumgartner

EE147. Airborne 2155 17Aug43 from woodhall Spa.

Silly me ... I see you've told us this Adriano, many thanks.

So does anyone know, or can find out what the target ETA would have been for this aircraft? Is it reasonable logic to assert (on this easy night for navigation, moonlit, calm conditions, etc, etc) that, by referencing other aircraft take off times (from Woodhall Spa or elsewhere) and bombing times we could get a "probable" time over target for EE147?

I'm fully aware we'd only be using best estimates, and of course we'll never know if for example they went around again or anything like that.

Thanks, Don

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hello Gnome!
You added quite a lot of NEW data!
The fact that the bodies were recovered and given a burial is of interest. Also quite amazing the fact that you found that the body of the Lancaster crashed almost over Peenemunde - not on the sea.
I will try to have a good look at all the claims to discuss with you later. By the way, could you scann for me the Flight Plan? I could calculate for you the ETA over Peenemunde ( will try to get the winds data to calculate it properly ).
But the main problem is that we do not know IF the German combat claims were so precise. There are - as you will see - so many claims OVER Peenemunde itself...without any other clues. And we can imagine that it take some minutes for a Lancaster to fall down from 8,000 or more feets!
I am sure we can find the victor, checking and re-checking ALL that claims...I will have a careful look at them and try to help you.

Sincerely yours

Adriano

[Smith]

Adriano ... I don't have the flight plan and don't know how to get one (from here in New Zealand anyway). I wonder if anyone can suggest how we get hold of a copy? Thanks Don

[Adriano Baumgartner]

Hi Gnome.
I got a map of the Area, although not so detailed as I wanted. Yes, there are a lot of claims that we can discard - too far away to the West, or over the Sea, or to the South.
But, there many claims over Peenemunde without any other clear indication...and that will be our problem!
From the site bomberslost ( I passed you on a previous reply ) 619 Squadron lost only 3 Lancasters and that of your uncle was the last one to take off!
Did you find the book of Middlebrook? We could have an idea of the flight made by the heavies that night. For example: if the first leg was direct to somewhere over Denmark; the second leg apparently crossed the Baltic from W to East almost directly to Peenemunde. This way we can "guesstimate" the actual ( or most probable time ) of your uncle´s Lanc over the target.
What seems strange on this story is that he and his crew were buried in Poland. If they crashed 200 m from the center of Peenemunde, why did the Germans buried them so far away?
And there are many considerations: Like I told you, depending of how badly damaged a Lancaster was he could fly for some time until crashing...
But gladly for "our" research, most of bombers were shot down around 2,000-3,000 meters this night.
I looked all the claims and like you - started to eliminate some candidates. But there are so many Luftwaffe pilots that claimed victories over Peenemunde that we would have to calculate the ETO to have an idea - or check with 619 Squadron survivors their times over the target. So, for example, an aircraft that took off at 21:45 arrived over Peenemunde at 00:55hs - your uncle should have arrived around 01:05hs...
I will keep in touch...Have you got contacts with other 619 Squad veterans? Is there a 619 Squadron Association? Maybe 619 Squadron ORB at the Public Record Office at Kew ( UK )?
I´ll be waiting more news from you.
Yours as ever
Adriano