Jewish airmen in WWII

[Franek Grabowski]

Ruy

Originally Posted by Ruy Horta

Like so many questions it will probably be solved by a visit to the archives.
If Rigg can find these figures for the German Armed Forces, it can only be easier for the majority of other combattants*.

Not so simple. For example in the available PAF personal documents, religion was more than often not recorded. I am currently tracing roots of a one airman (pure marketing ) and checked within local archives - they have nothing as well.
I have neither possibility, knowledge nor will to do an extensive searches in foreign archives. I am just curious and did not expect such a quite weird reaction.

According to Rigg p. 66
1914-18
Germany
100.000 soldiers
3.200 officers
12.000 casualties
Austro-Hungarian
300.000 soldiers
n/a officers
25.000 casualties

Those seem pretty high numbers but need to be compared with general population. Also, they do not show disposition of the men.

According to Rigg's research (table 5 p.64) there was a surprisingly high number of Jews and Mischlinge who served in the Wehrmacht.
97 Jews
967 Half Jews
607 Quarter Jews
1671 Total
5 Jews served with the Waffen-SS
1 Jewish Admiral
3 Half-Jewish Admirals
11 Half Jewish Generals!!

Hmm, frankly those numbers seem too low for me, but they are interesting anyway. Milch and Heinkel are not included I suppose.

An interesting book that anyone with an interest in this subject should have read.

Yes, I think so - I am waiting for it.

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by G. Warrener

[size=2]Well there was "Sos" Cohen – or Lionel Frederick William Cohen DSO. MC. DFC. for a start. Flying with Coastal Command as a rear gunner in his sixties.

One more, seems quite decorated. Thanks.

If you want I can search out all the Jewish war graves at Rheinbeg & Reichswald cemeteries.

Oh, I do not think it is necessary.

I do not care if an allied airman was Jewish, Atheist, Christian (Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Quaker, Methodist, Baptist, Greek-Orthodox, Mormon, Dutch Reformed, etc) or Buddhist (Burmese Tiffy pilots) or even Islamic (i.e Egyptian Gladiator pilots) or the brave Sikhs in their Vultee Vengeances.

Well, I would say it would be weird not to expect Sikhs in IAF or Muslims in REAF, is not it?

Maybe there were even Christians in the Japanese forces.....

Definetelly, also I think there was one US subject flying in the air defence of Japan.

If one person is capable of killing another inspired by political dogma – then why do you choose to emphasize Jews in the NKVD rather than Soviet atheists in the NKVD?

Just because you have claimed that Jews are good guys. The things those guys did there I would not even call bad. Awful is perhaps a better word.

OK I do accept that Poland was always the victim of aggression, rather than aggressor (excepting little bits of Czech territory in the late 1930s) The extremes of the Shoah took place on Polish soil – but the prime-movers were German

What do you mean by prime-movers? Do you believe there were any end-movers?

But I am disturbed the underlining of Jews in the Red Army or Jews who defected from the Polish Forces in the Middle East.

I was underlining the Red Army were not good guys. Are you not disturbed by Jews setting bombs and killing British troops in Palestine?

Look at events in post war Poland – even statements from the famous and otherwise quite admirable Solidarity president from Gdansk. The moment a Jew achieves any position – he becomes a target, even a ‘threat’

The president just finished himself. The Jewish question you mention is quite complicated but to make it short, the people who claim to be a target of such attacks are originating from families of worsest communist, are of Jewish descent indeed, claim their nationality depending on situation and purpose, spit on Poles (eg. false article about mass murdering Jews during the Warsaw Uprising), etc. Strangely, other Jews do not suffer from 'antisemitism'.

It is a European phobia, even now an Arabic phobia – but I refuse to have any part in it.

What is a phobia? Jewish threat in Poland???

The ramp at Oswiecim is the lowest common denominator.

What it has to the aviation?

Some wanted to see all Jews on the ramp – some merely want to know how many Jews belonged to organisation X

There is a website concerning Jewes in the BoB and Bo Arnhem by certain Martin Sugarman (quite sloppy research). Also certain Beniamin Meirtchak from Israel published a book on fallen Polish soldiers of Jewish origin. I understand those are prime 'antisemites' in your mind.

I may be too suspiscious – but it does spook me

And I am very curious. Are you considering being a Jew a shameful fact?

[G. Warrener]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

I am just curious what was the participation of Jewes in air forces of WWII on either fighting side.

Why? It is your right to be curious, but why? What to you wish to ascertain?

Graham
mixed ancestry - no Chinese.

[G. Warrener]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

One more, seems quite decorated. Thanks.

Ezer Weizman ;-)



Oh, I do not think it is necessary.

phew........



Well, I would say it would be weird not to expect Sikhs in IAF or Muslims in REAF, is not it?

Nor should it be weird to expect Jews in the RAF, USAAF or Armee de l'Air.



Definetelly, also I think there was one US subject flying in the air defence of Japan.

I've heard he was an ex San Francisco taxi-driver in the US who flew a Zero



Just because you have claimed that Jews are good guys. The things those guys did there I would not even call bad. Awful is perhaps a better word.

In the context of WW2 the Jews as a general grouping (religious) were subject to intended genocide by Nazi Germany. Being a Jew does not make one good or evil, but being a Christian in WW2 is hardly much better. The Germans and Soviets were (as national entities) mass murderers. The 'Jews' were not - though Jews may have been involved in such slaughter not just as victims. Emphasizing such 'Jews' whilst ignoring Lutheran or Catholic Nazis - or Orthodox Soviets is 'weighted'.



What do you mean by prime-movers? Do you believe there were any end-movers?

prime = main not just first, but the Germans found enough support among i.e. Latvians or Lithuanians, as well as bureaucratic acceptance of the holocaust from occupied France right through to Hungary. And not too many American or British authorities cared to be moved to sooner action by what was being reported from Europe 1943-44



I was underlining the Red Army were not good guys. Are you not disturbed by Jews setting bombs and killing British troops in Palestine?

No. You take the King's shilling and the natives of this world take pot-shots at you, 'twas ever so. Afghans, Dervishes, Boars, Zionists, IRA etc.... Black, white or yellow - don't trust the b*stards!

The Red Army was awful - excellent front-line troops, and a raping horde as follow-up units. Without them Hitler could not have been beaten.

Poland was betrayed - of that there can be no dispute.



The president just finished himself. The Jewish question you mention is quite complicated but to make it short, the people who claim to be a target of such attacks are originating from families of worsest communist, are of Jewish descent indeed, claim their nationality depending on situation and purpose, spit on Poles (eg. false article about mass murdering Jews during the Warsaw Uprising), etc. Strangely, other Jews do not suffer from 'antisemitism'.

A 'Jewish question'? Were there no Catholic communists?



What is a phobia? Jewish threat in Poland???

Distrust of Jews - that is the Europen phobia - nothing unique to Poland



What it has to the aviation?

"Second WW in General" Key aspect - but not to be shouldered by asian nations. With aviation? agreed - not much excepting certain photo-recce photos.



There is a website concerning Jewes in the BoB and Bo Arnhem by certain Martin Sugarman (quite sloppy research). Also certain Beniamin Meirtchak from Israel published a book on fallen Polish soldiers of Jewish origin. I understand those are prime 'antisemites' in your mind.

Find me a website about Christians in the BoB. Collating religion with nationality is harmless - but the interpretation may be poison. I distrust the nice normal people who when questioned reveal a hatred of Jews.



And I am very curious. Are you considering being a Jew a shameful fact?

No, as a believing Jew one is in Covenant with an authority of which no shame may be possible.

*********

:-O Graham

[G. Warrener]

Hello

http://www.ajex.org.uk/FRAME/museumframe.htm

Graham

[Franek Grabowski]

Ezer Weizman ;-)

Oh, I thought it was too obvious. Certainly all the airmen of the early IDF had some WWII experience but how many of them were pure mercenaries like Beurling? Klibanski (sp.?) is another, ex-112, later known as Alon. Who else?

Nor should it be weird to expect Jews in the RAF, USAAF or Armee de l'Air.

Considering quantity of diasporrah, they should be expected. So, what is the problem with the names?

I've heard he was an ex San Francisco taxi-driver in the US who flew a Zero

Nope, IIRC he was of mixed parentage and was killed in combat with B-29s in the 1945. Flew Tonys or something like that.

In the context of WW2 the Jews as a general grouping (religious) were subject to intended genocide by Nazi Germany. Being a Jew does not make one good or evil, but being a Christian in WW2 is hardly much better. The Germans and Soviets were (as national entities) mass murderers. The 'Jews' were not - though Jews may have been involved in such slaughter not just as victims. Emphasizing such 'Jews' whilst ignoring Lutheran or Catholic Nazis - or Orthodox Soviets is 'weighted'.

In the Eastern Europe Jews were considered synonymous to communists. Perhaps not fair but not without reason. Their part as a nation was significant and the fact it is neither politically correct nor mentioned in Western history books cannot change the facts. Sorry!

prime = main not just first, but the Germans found enough support among i.e. Latvians or Lithuanians, as well as bureaucratic acceptance of the holocaust from occupied France right through to Hungary. And not too many American or British authorities cared to be moved to sooner action by what was being reported from Europe 1943-44

I am afraid your views could be quite harmful, especially as Hungary was quite a safe place for Jews as long as Hungarians could manage the subject. Also behaviour in Baltic states or Ukraine must be viewed by the perspective of Soviet occupation. I find no excuse for France, Great Britain or USA though.

No. You take the King's shilling and the natives of this world take pot-shots at you, 'twas ever so. Afghans, Dervishes, Boars, Zionists, IRA etc.... Black, white or yellow - don't trust the b*stards!

At the time the army is fighting those b*stards killing your nation? Nay, I do not buy it. Post-war - OK. Oh, BTW, how do you feel with the fact, the zionist movement in Palestine was supported by Germany and Poland?

The Red Army was awful - excellent front-line troops, and a raping horde as follow-up units. Without them Hitler could not have been beaten.

I assume you have never seen Soviet front-line troops. And without them, Hitler would never start the war.

Poland was betrayed - of that there can be no dispute.

And some other countries and people.

A 'Jewish question'? Were there no Catholic communists?

Polish - yes, catholic - no. The problem here is to determine if Jewishnes is a nation or religion. However much more significant is the fact no Jew - communistic criminal - was ever officially condemned by any Jewish authority. Various excuses were used, often ridiculous - I remember very well an interview with Shevakh Weiss, Israeli ambassador here in Poland.

Distrust of Jews - that is the Europen phobia - nothing unique to Poland

It is neither limited to Europe nor to Jewes. Take Chinese for example.

Find me a website about Christians in the BoB. Collating religion with nationality is harmless - but the interpretation may be poison. I distrust the nice normal people who when questioned reveal a hatred of Jews.

Find me a page about Roman-Catholic Polish soldiers! Nonsense, as a majority was. It is simply much easier to find minorities, like Czechoslovak, Estonian or US citizens serving in the PAF. Same about religions.
Collating nationality with religion was and is quite common in this part of Europe, where there were no ethnic borders and community was quite mixed and dispersed. Protestants were German, Orthodox - Russians or Rutenians, Jews - well, Catholics - Poles. Naturalisation was partially done by a conversion of religion. The same situation is in Balkans. Perhaps it will change gradually, but I am not so sure. The world is not Britain-like created.

No, as a believing Jew one is in Covenant with an authority of which no shame may be possible.

So, what is your problem?

Finally, concerning Ajex site - I do not trust them. Judging by their research on Jews in the Polish army (sic!), their research is sloppy or even with a bad will.

[G. Warrener]

Originally Posted by Franek Grabowski

So, what is your problem?

Hi Franek

more of a difficulty than a problem....

I seem to be the only member choosing to respond to your posting, which, as someone who finds the Baal Shem Tov an inspiration, seems to be an ill-advised decision.

Shalom!

Graham

[Franek Grabowski]

Graham
Who would remember a rabbi living three centuries ago? And what it has to the history of WWII, which happenned 60 years ago? This is not a site about ideology and relligion but about history.
I find exremelly weird a question about famous Jews is inspirational when asked by another Jew but difficult or even 'antisemitic' when asked by a non-Jew. Oh well, today another news is spreading Poland - Israel once again refused to hand over Salomon Morel, a commander of a camp in Świętochłowice, where at least 1538 prisoners dies (read - were murdered), both Poles and Germans imprisoned by communists. Morel escaped to Israel in the early 1990s and resides there since. Another inspirational good guy?
Now, it is really interesting. There is a lot of trouble to name but a few famous Jewish aviators and there is really no problem to find plenty of communistic criminals of the same origin. What conclusion should I have drawn?

[G. Warrener]

Jewish = Religion OK?

Any question about Jews is perforce a question about a religious identity.

Anyhow my old Rabbi was very tolerant of other religions. I do not remember him, I'm not that old. I am not Jewish - but I love Judaic mysticism. To adherents of psuedo-scientific racial theories I am a goner and not too trustworthy as a long long time ago one of my ancesters married a Jewess........ oooooh!

I do not understand why, other than Ruy, nobody else can help you in your mysterious mission to establish how many 'Jews' served with the various WW2 airforces. There is information on the web - but as most of it is compiled by sloppy Jewish researchers who are more anti-Polish than they are should be - all that I can quickly offer is in a similar vein.

I have no influence on Israeli unwillingness to extradite murderers to Poland.

********************************
....meet Harry...
"Among those whose Heroes Return awards are announced today is veteran Harry Levy from Leeds in West Yorkshire, who will be making an emotional journey back to Lansdorf prisoner of war camp where he spent three wartime years. Harry, an RAF wireless operator and air gunner on Wellington bombers, was shot down by a Messerschmitt fighter over Belgium as he and his crew were returning from a raid over Dusseldorf. He remembers: "I was up in my turret when the fighter suddenly came upon us; he was very close, I could see the markings quite clearly. Suddenly he opened fire and I was hit in the chest and leg. I managed to crawl back into the fuselage but the rest of the crew were dead. I remember the navigator slumped over his charts and the pilot hanging limp from his straps. The plane was on fire and there was nothing I could do."

Harry realised his only chance was to bale out, and after kicking through a panel in the tail end he jumped clear between the tail fin and the rear gunner's turret, which was now swinging wildly from side to side. He recalls hurtling down in the pitch black. "It was about 2 o'clock in the morning, and I hadn't a clue where the ground was. So when I landed it was a complete shock, and my knees went straight up into my stomach. At first I couldn't get up; then, in the dark I made out a cottage and dragged myself over to knock on the door. After a few moments the lights came on and an old man opened the door and shook my hand enthusiastically. He pulled me inside, rushed out of the room and came back wearing a First World War helmet."

Sheltered by the local community, Harry was smuggled to a house with seven children where he hid in an attic for four days before being taken to Brussels, where he was eventually caught by the Germans and thrown in prison. After ten weeks of solitary confinement he was transferred to Landsdorf prison for the duration of the war.

Warmly welcoming the Heroes Return scheme, Harry, now 82, plans to pass on a personal piece of history through his book 'The Dark Side of the Sky', which he will donate to the Landsdorf Museum along with a series of cartoons depicting prison life sketched by a fellow inmate. "

*******************
http://www.pmo.gov.il/PMOEng/Communi...eech110504.htm

http://www.australiansatwar.gov.au/s...p?war=W1&id=26

http://www.ajex.org.uk/ (sloppy)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...w2/Arnhem.html (sloppy)

http://www.yorku.ca/cjv/db/directory.php

http://www.marchoftheliving.org/mol2...tt05speech.pdf

http://www.harrypalmergallery.ab.ca/...issenthal.html


********************

Why are you curious about such objectionable people? I'm still waiting for this information - as you can hardly be regarded as a 'friendly researcher' from what you have revealed in your various postings


TTFN
Graham

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by G. Warrener

Jewish = Religion OK?

The problem is that it is not necessarily equal, just by your standards. Though it is rather a matter of non-religiousness rather than other religion.

Any question about Jews is perforce a question about a religious identity.

Anyhow my old Rabbi was very tolerant of other religions.

Do I understand correctly, it make him exceptional?

I do not remember him, I'm not that old. I am not Jewish - but I love Judaic mysticism. To adherents of psuedo-scientific racial theories I am a goner and not too trustworthy as a long long time ago one of my ancesters married a Jewess........ oooooh!

Well, some people like Irish music, some not. A matter of choice.

I do not understand why, other than Ruy, nobody else can help you in your mysterious mission to establish how many 'Jews' served with the various WW2 airforces.

And this is extremelly good question.

There is information on the web - but as most of it is compiled by sloppy Jewish researchers who are more anti-Polish than they are should be - all that I can quickly offer is in a similar vein.

There is also a website on Jewish airmen in the BoB by certain Sugarman. His research on Polish airmen just knocked me down - he listed Zygmunt Klein as a Jew and noted that Bohdan Arct mispelled the name to Kinel due to typical Polish antisemitism. Poor SOB never noticed Klein and Kinel were two separate persons. Polish part is hopeless anyway, therefore I am very cautious to accept his finds on the RAF airmen.
Concerning your links, website about Candians is interesting but death rate seems suspicious for me. Enlistement into the service does not mean service on the frontline. Clerk or medician is an important duty but it is not the airman flying against the enemy.

I have no influence on Israeli unwillingness to extradite murderers to Poland.

I think so, but you do not need to call them good guys. Could not be just guys?

Why are you curious about such objectionable people? I'm still waiting for this information - as you can hardly be regarded as a 'friendly researcher' from what you have revealed in your various postings

Because I am curious. Otherwise, what can I do with information that eg. X, ace of Y, was Jewish?