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Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies. |
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#21
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
Marius
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#22
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
Since there is so much accumulated knowledge on this forum I had hoped for some hard fact of data, as in mission so and so on date so and so had civilian morale as its primary target, based on strategy, operational planning, bomb load etc.
Area bombing is a good example, I could probably pick up a book like The Right of the Line, by John Terraine, and find this kind of exact data for the RAF. This is outside the Terror bombing debate and not meant as an accusation against the British bombing campaign. Why is it so hard to find such a similar mission for the Luftwaffe. Some here are so hard pressed to find that mission in Poland, but lets start with a mission that is clearly defined by Luftwaffe sources. Afterwards we can argue about the finer points of secondary strategic objectives (like Rotterdam for example), as opposed to primary tactical ones. One point that casts doubt on Franek's thesis is choice of weapon, why Stukas when level bombers would be far more effective in causing as many civilians casualties as possible - the utlimate aim of terror bombing: civilian morale. Weren't the Baedecker Raids clearly defined in that way, just to start with?
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Ruy Horta 12 O'Clock High! And now I see with eye serene The very pulse of the machine; A being breathing thoughtful breath, A traveller between life and death; |
#23
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
"Since there is so much accumulated knowledge on this forum I had hoped for some hard fact of data, as in mission so and so on date so and so had civilian morale as its primary target, based on strategy, operational planning, bomb load etc."
From what I understan, you would like to see explicite orders of bombing or strafing civilians/civilan targets. You will hardly find any. Exactly the same way it would be difficult to find written orders about executing civilians or POWs. That Doesn't change the facts that many of this killings have taken place. Regarding Frampol. That town had no military value, no troops or even any AA. With around 3000 inhabitants, mostly Jews it was a perfect practice target, as almost all buildings were 1 or 2 floor buidings with a very good orientation point, the town hall exactly in the middle of the town. If you look at the aerial pictures of Frampol from before 1939, it is almost a perfect square, very, very characteristic from an aerial view and difficult to be mistaken with any other town in the surroundings. So, if not as a target practice of low level bombing (made a perfect target for that purpose), why it was attacked, especially when there were still others, more interesting targets? Martin |
#24
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
Martin
[Regarding Frampol... So, if not as a target practice of low level bombing (made a perfect target for that purpose), why it was attacked, especially when there were still others, more interesting targets?] Indeed a very interesting question. But see, Frampol was bombed on the 13th September. German troops (the frontline) were nearby and the city was taken a few hours later. I am sure the attack was made to support ground troops. Similar to the attack on Wielun on 1.9. The question is why somebody should make an experiment - destroying a town which a few hours later fell in German hands? Completely unlogical. The same questions concerning Wielun and Warsaw. Could somebody show a German document describing such experimental attacks? Could somebody mention a Polish town which was a civilian target without any doubt? Marius |
#25
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
Hi,
I don't normally get involved in these types of discussion but I find it quite depressing reading some of the vitriolic comment / statements, from at least one direction. This thread is going the same way as another recent one on aircraft specs / performance / production etc etc which got very silly, didn't take anyone anywhere, and was eventually stopped. I feel that we all have the benefit of hindsight, weren't actually there, not everything said at meetings or briefings would be recorded (as now) so we may never have full documentary proof anyway. There does come a time when we have to agree to differ until some new evidence comes to light, or until we have time to calmly sit back and re-assess that currently available. It is unfortunate in time of war that civilians on the other side are still considered as ' the enemy ' and that somewhere along the line they have an input to the war economy / production and could very easily be seen as an indirect militarily justifiable target, however flimsy that connection could be. Just my thoughts and not a comment on individuals perceptions, or views! (I've donned my flak jacket just in case!) Regards David |
#26
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
"I am sure the attack was made to support ground troops."
Basically, from what I know, a target of a ground support attack are troops or other military value targets. As we all agree, there were no troops at Frampol and the town had no strategic value, especially that German troops were soon to enter it without any resistance. I will not say - because it was a town mainly inhabited by Jews.... Anyway, the question remains, why? No matter what is or will be the answer to that question, it was a purely civilian target and a war crime. "I feel that we all have the benefit of hindsight, weren't actually there, not everything said at meetings or briefings would be recorded (as now) so we may never have full documentary proof anyway. " David. As have demonstrated lately some events in Aghanistan, the case of bombing Canadian troops by US aviators, even today not everything is offcially signed or recorded. Martin |
#27
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
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The RAF bomber campaign is a good example. At one point there came a strategic shift in thinking where maximizing civilians casualties and the destruction of housing became a primary military objective and German civilian morale a strategic target (judging by the collapse of 1918 not an altogether silly concept). When military and science worked hard to maximize the effect of bombs on civilian housing etc etc etc. Again, before people get offended, this is not an attack on the virtue of RAF Bomber Command or its brave men, nor is it an attempt to accuse them of war crimes. This case is just helpful to define a clear framework - civilians as primary target - supported by theory, planning and execution. I am certain that you can find such defined examples in German operations, from the Blitz to Jabo raids over Britain.
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Ruy Horta 12 O'Clock High! And now I see with eye serene The very pulse of the machine; A being breathing thoughtful breath, A traveller between life and death; |
#28
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
Ruy
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By the way, I see there is plenty of room for research for our British colleagues. I would love to see any study on German attacks on British civilian population, straffing, as well as shootingn at bailing out airman. Marius Quote:
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#29
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
Ironrat,
[As we all agree, there were no troops at Frampol and the town had no strategic value, especially that German troops were soon to enter it without any resistance. I will not say - because it was a town mainly inhabited by Jews.... Anyway, the question remains, why? No matter what is or will be the answer to that question, it was a purely civilian target and a war crime.] The question is if we all in fact agree? As I wrote on 13th September German troops were nearby. What makes you so sure there were no Polish troops in the area? What makes you so sure the town would be entered without any resistance? The most decisive question is, if there in fact were no Polish troops, could it be that these troops left the city before it was bombed? And how could the Germans know there were no (or no more) troops in the city? We know the city was bombed by I./KG 77, but according to war diaries of the unit the operational area was described as: Bilgoraj - Janow - Frampol. And there were masses of Polish troops. This area was attacked on this 13th by I./KG 55 as well. The area was also bombed on the 12th and on the 14th. So why an experimental flight against Frampol on the 13th? I am sure it wasn`t. Marius |
#30
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?
Ruy and all others,
I will start with a very important German document. Perhaps someone will translate it into English. Wasserkante means here Warsaw. Entwurf: Angriffsbefehl "Wasserkante" (Dieses Dokument trägt den Vermerk: nicht befohlen CH. Op 1 aufheben v.W.) 1. Lfl.1 und 4 bereiten für 11.9. einen zusammengefassten Angriff gegen "Wasserkante" vor. 2. Der Angriff ist als Vergeltung der an den deutschen Soldaten verübten Verbrechen anzusehen und hat die Zerstörung "Wasserkante" zum Ziel. ... 6. Einzelheiten der Durchführung: a. Es kommt darauf an, bei dem 1.Angriff weitgehendst Zerstörungen in den Stadtteilen zu erreichen. b. Daneben ist die Zerstörung der militärisch wichtigsten Ziele unter allen Umständen durch den Einsatz von Stuka-Verbänden sicherzustellen. c. Beim 1.Angriff sind keine Brandbomben mitzuführen. .... Weisungen des Ob.d.L. Fuehrungsstabes Ia fuer den Feldzug in Polen an Luftflotte 1 und 4 mit Ergaenzungen und Vorbefehlen BA/MA Freiburg, ZA 3/418, page 34-35. What is so important here? This document was published by some authors (also in my book "Kampfflieger" on page VII) and is known to many people visiting war expositions about German war crimes. It was until now presented as an original order to German Luftwaffe units and as evidence for Luftwaffe "war crimes" started in Poland. For example Olaf Gröhler wrote in his book about this document. It makes me really sad that Gröhler (like many others) manipulated this document. The latter cut out the first two sentences! So we cannot read the following words: Entwurf (draft/plan) and nicht befohlen (not ordered). I think I was the first one who published this document without a manipulation. And I will ask another question: why some people have manipulated original German Luftwaffe documents to bring the evidence for German war crimes? Marius |
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