15 April - first P-47 kill in ETO - confirmed, or not?

[Reno]

It's definately possible that the a/c Blakeslee bounced were from a differnt unit altogather - I would again submit he had a few kills under him already and that if it was seen to crash into the sea - well not much more to discuss! I find it fascinating that there is more and more reseach being conducted by both professional researchers/historians, aas well as very keen amateurs on the air fighting of WWII!

Although it'd be nice to hear from Col. Blakeslee himself. I believe his he still with us (I saw him in a History Channel episode about the P-51). Man would he have a terific autobiography!

[Franek Grabowski]

Overclaim over sea was particularly high. Quite often airmen have been watching an aircraft going down in a hopeless situation and then just nothing - conclusion drawn is obvious - the aircraft went into the drink - but it is not necessarily true. This applies to all air forces.
All the answers should be in Blakeslee combat report - anybody checked it?

[Reno]

Franek - your remark about claims over water is interesting. Please elaborate on this topic. I'm interested since most of the descriptions on this day's event claim the German a/c crashed into the water after a combat from 20,000 plus feet to about 500 feet.

In Jim Goodson's book, he describes the combat that dropped down to 500 feet. I'd like to read the combat report and maybe even research the gun came footage ... I'm close to the Natl Archives that house the WWII gun point info. Again I would side with the description of the pilot, especially a veteren with a few kills under his belt.

But the reason this is a on-going topic is that the German unit involved admitted to no losses that day.

[Franek Grabowski]

Well, it is a general observation, not sure how can I elaborate. Of course errors in German documents cannot be excluded as well.

[Reno]

I guess I'm just trying to establish a base line - if the pilot states he shot an enemy a/c down and it was seen to crash into the sea, but post war research states no a/c were shot down for the unit that most likely was in the area - what could we as avid WWII military aviation enthusists uncover and where do we start?

[Ruy Horta]

Regarding Tumult in the Clouds, it is been a while since I read it, but it did not read like a very accurate piece of history, some of it actually feels more than iffy to me (but I'd need to read the whole thing again to be specific). Personally I would only consider it worth a purchase if you are either a real enthusiast, a real collector, find it in a bargain bin or finally when book space and cash aren't an issue.

I am not 100% sure on this one, but I also believe that Goodson writes about half of the Jagdwaffe as augering into the see...this may be an exaggeration, but some pilots seem to have a knack for seeing Messerschmitts in death dives.



Please spare me the heavy high speeds controls debate!

[Franek Grabowski]

Currently I am looking for German pilots who baled out from Fw 190s in April 1942 in France, I understand your problem.
Well, your baseline is the claim. All you can do is to research Allied operations of the day in order to make a clear view of the mission as well as other missions of the day. Then you have to research Luftwaffe operations which is not that very easy but still you have plenty of sources both German and from Allied intelligence.
Have in mind that quite often German losses are inaccurate or misdated, I have found some combat losses that occured on the days no combats were reported by Allies. Of course no definite proof as they could have occured due to friendly fire or simply not claimed. I was talking to a pilot, who claimed he had separated from a formation for a free hunt. Together with a friend they bounced two Me 109s but never claimed them as this was a clear case of breaking the orders. I have found a confirmation from another source, I think independent enough to make the story credible.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Reno

Franek - your remark about claims over water is interesting. Please elaborate on this topic.

Fighter pilots did inflate the number of aerial victories at sea. Some more than others...

February 12th, 1942
After the British Fleet Air Arm attacked a convoy of German warships off Gravelines, they admitted to the loss of six Swordfish from No. 825 Squadron. But the defenders claimed no less than 21 Swordfish shot down into the sea -- at least eleven kills were awarded to German fighters. According to John Weal, the Germans credited ten more Swordfish to Kriegsmarine flak gunners.

June 3rd, 1942
After Circus 184, the RAF admitted to the loss of six Spitfires to all causes (including two planes that collided in flight). But German pilots from JG 2 and JG 26 were credited with no less than 23 Spitfires shot down into the sea off the coast of France.

June 5th, 1942
After Circus 188, the RAF admitted to the loss of eight Spitfires to all causes (including two damaged planes that returned to the UK). But German pilots from JG 2 and JG 26 were again credited with no less than 23 Spitfires shot down into the sea off the coast of France.

April 29th, 1944
After the US Navy air strikes against Truk Atoll, the Japanese admitted to the loss of 59 aircraft shot down. Barrett Tillman noted that the list of aerial victories credited to US Navy flyers was very accurate -- they were awarded with 65 Japanese planes shot down.

June 19th, 1944
After the 'Great Marianas Turkey Shoot' (amongst the largest carrier battles in history) the Japanese admitted to the loss of 325 aircraft to all causes, including 60 land-based planes. Overclaiming was more significant this time, but not unreasonable. C-in-C Pacific estimated the destruction of 402 Japanese planes -- including 366 downed by Hellcats, 19 downed by AA fire, and 17 destroyed on the ground.

[Six Nifty .50s]

Originally Posted by Six Nifty .50s

Fighter pilots did inflate the number of aerial victories at sea. Some more than others...

February 12th, 1942
After the British Fleet Air Arm attacked a convoy of German warships off Gravelines, they admitted to the loss of six Swordfish from No. 825 Squadron. But the defenders claimed no less than 21 Swordfish shot down into the sea -- at least eleven kills were awarded to German fighters. According to John Weal, the Germans credited ten more Swordfish to Kriegsmarine flak gunners.

June 3rd, 1942
After Circus 184, the RAF admitted to the loss of six Spitfires to all causes (including two planes that collided in flight). But German pilots from JG 2 and JG 26 were credited with no less than 23 Spitfires shot down into the sea off the coast of France.

June 5th, 1942
After Circus 188, the RAF admitted to the loss of eight Spitfires to all causes (including two damaged planes that returned to the UK). But German pilots from JG 2 and JG 26 were again credited with no less than 23 Spitfires shot down into the sea off the coast of France.

April 29th, 1944
After the US Navy air strikes against Truk Atoll, the Japanese admitted to the loss of 59 aircraft shot down. Barrett Tillman noted that the list of aerial victories credited to US Navy flyers was very accurate -- they were awarded with 65 Japanese planes shot down.

June 19th, 1944
After the 'Great Marianas Turkey Shoot' (amongst the largest carrier battles in history) the Japanese admitted to the loss of 325 aircraft to all causes, including 60 land-based planes. Overclaiming was more significant this time, but not unreasonable. C-in-C Pacific estimated the destruction of 402 Japanese planes -- including 366 downed by Hellcats, 19 downed by AA fire, and 17 destroyed on the ground.

I forgot to include the most controversial case of inflated aerial victories at sea:

December 18th, 1939
After 22 RAF bombers crossed the North Sea and subsequently aborted their attack on German ships at Wilhelmshaven, the RAF admitted that twelve Wellingtons failed to return from the mission. Ten planes were shot down near the target and two ditched later. The remaining ten Wellingtons were all damaged to some extent and several were scrapped after landing in the UK. There is disagreement on the total kills awarded to German flyers. Several pilot reports were either rejected or not confirmed by higher authorities, but if I understood correctly, Tony Wood's Web site lists 40 Wellingtons claimed as shot down into the sea by JG 1, JG 26, JG 77, ZG 76 and JGr. 101.

[Ruy Horta]

Originally Posted by Six Nifty .50s

I forgot to include the most controversial case of inflated aerial victories at sea

The Most Controversial Case of Inflated Victories at Sea

By who's authority, yours?

First you cannot bring up any hard numbers for German claims, second why bring this up in the first place? Isn't this about an early USAAF claim?

There wasn't a discussion about enthusiastic early (as in 1939) war claims.

Also it isn't about absolute numbers, but about relative ones. In your assumed case it is a 4:1 overclaim, are your sure this is really is The Most Controversial Case of Inflated Victories at Sea?

Please keep the discussion on topic, if you want to discuss this event, go to the Luftwaffe part of this site. See what figures come up.