1944 Toplet, Romania, Ju52 crash near Orsova

[egbert]

Alex, if you read the thread carefully you will clearly read that we /I are talking only of 16.4.44, 17.4.44 and 10.5.44. and indeed there were USAAF bombings going on like hell, to include the prominent B24 bombing raid with P38 fighter escort on nearby Turnu Severin airfield and marshalling yards.
Please do not refer to dates before 16 April 1944. There is another thread here on the forum plus 2 eyewitness reports that substantiate my claims!
Also who mentioned Soviet naval and air activities near Orsova-nobody did.
Please stay on topic.

[Larry deZeng]

Researcher111 wrote in part:

I repeat there were no Allied actions whatsoever over Romania before May 4,1944 not even recon flights.

15th AAF began attacking targets in Romania in April 1944:

4 Apr 44: 93 B-17s, 220 B-24s and 119 escort fighters to Bucharest marshalling yards.
5 Apr 44: 94 B-17s, 136 B-24s and 180 escort fighters to Ploesti marshalling yards.
15 Apr 44: 257 B-24s and 149 escort fighters to Bucharest; 137 B-17s to Ploesti.
16 Apr 44: 126 B-24s to Brasov marshalling yards; 151 B-24s to Turnu Severin; 224 escort fighters participated.
21 Apr 44: large force to Bucharest.
24 Apr 44: large force to Bucharest and Ploesti.
etc., etc., etc.

[researcher111]

Larry

There were two messages posted one which contained a typo , wrongly posted msg was deleted .If you would review the correct one , it states April 4,44,
did you check that as well before correcting mine ?

Egbert

I really don't get you ,here is what you posted on the other forum:

1944-04-16, 9./Transport Geschwader 4, Ju 52/3mg8e, WNr. 501325, Bei Toplitz, 9 km westlich Orsowa, am Eisernen Tor, Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %. Crew of 4 and 23 passengers were killed ( you also mentioned JG 54 pax's )

You state in German that JU-52 was shot down during air to air activity 9 Km West of Orsova on 16.4.44 , this is what I am reffering to . If the JU-52 was shot down on that date due air to air activities what are the evidences you are using ?

On 16.April 460 BG bombed Turnul Severin, FG's 31,325,14 provided escorts while 82nd FG failed the randezvous . You mentioned a P-38 involved , that would therefore leave only 14 FG . Sofar still looking for a claim from that group though there are none. I also checked 31st FG history book , no claims on that day.From 82nd FG who missed their randezvous only Rob Griffith claimed a HE-111 location unknown.

I am checking 325th FG history book FG and other records , sofar no claims of a JU-52 , therefore pse. cite your supporting evidences .

[researcher111]

Larry

Since you are interested on the 15th AF Romanian campaigns, in addition to your dates here is an addition , on April 5th 450th BG , 99th BG and 451st BG also bombed Oradea while some assets of 304th Wng aborted due WX ,hope that helps.

[Larry deZeng]

researcher111 -

I must have posted mine just before you corrected yours.

On 16 April, 1st FG and 82d FG each claimed 1 multi-engine a/c in the Orsova - Turnu Severin area. The 1st FG had been on the Brasov mission while 82d FG was on the Belgrade - Nis - Turnu Severn mission. I could not find any details on the claims but, admittedly, I am no fighter expert as my interests lie elsewhere. Perhaps someone else can find them?

L.

[researcher111]

Larry

Thank you but at this point in time I would appreciate supporting evidences as into all such statements , I brought mines and would greatly appreciate
facts such the sources of the claims . None of the history books and additional material I have point out to such details . As into 1st FG there was only
a SM-79 claimed and not on Orsova area and by Lt Gerry while as already mentioned the 82nd claimed a lone HE-111 and not a JU-52 nor at Orsova .
Despite confussions at Allied side in WWII S-79 could have not been confused with JU-52,however some of the Allied pilots confussing the IAR-80 / 81
with Italian fighters is understandable .

[Larry deZeng]

Sure.

Mahoney, Kevin A. Fifteenth Air Force Against the Axis: Combat Missions Over Europe During World War II. Lanham (MD): The Scarecrow Press, Inc., 2013. ISBN: 978-0-8108-8494-6. Hb with laminated cover. 485p. Illus. (a few photos). Maps. Appendices (4). Glossary. Source Notes. Bibliography. Index.

Page 92, last paragraph.

L.

[researcher111]

Larry

Thanks for the update, I don't have this books and I will order it. However I have over 380 publications , private
publications and manuscripts related to 15th AF as well interviews conducted in the past .

Going through this huge stuff I could not find any reference to US fighters over Orsova . If at page 92 the author indicating
fighter claims over Orsova and are dated 4/16/44 and if this can be verified then it updates any of the publications I have
available because according to those and Charlie Pinson 82nd didn't reach as far as Orsova on that day and 1st FG were
involved near Brasov. I will update in due course .

[Larry deZeng]

More.................

Night 15/16 Apr 44: 83 Wellingtons dropped 135 tons of bombs on Turnu Severin marshalling yard. Explosions and fires were observed. One Ju 88 was destroyed and 3 Wellingtons were lost.
16 Apr 44: Brasov, Turnu Severin, Belgrade-Zemun, Nis missions. Details as I provided in an earlier post. New: “During the above operations 140 U.S. Lightenings, 39 U.S. Thunderbolts and 46 U.S. Mustangs provided escort. Three enemy aircraft were destroyed. Two U.S. Thunderbolts and one U.S. Mustang were lost.”

Source:
Duty Group Captain’s Daily Resumé of Air Operations, Serial No. 1585, SECRET, Air Ministry, Whitehall, 19.4.44, pages 2 and 3. AFHRA Microfilm Reel #A5353.

[Larry deZeng]

Originally Posted by researcher111

Larry

Thanks for the update, I don't have this books and I will order it. However I have over 380 publications , private
publications and manuscripts related to 15th AF as well interviews conducted in the past .

Going through this huge stuff I could not find any reference to US fighters over Orsova . If at page 92 the author indicating
fighter claims over Orsova and are dated 4/16/44 and if this can be verified then it updates any of the publications I have
available because according to those and Charlie Pinson 82nd didn't reach as far as Orsova on that day and 1st FG were
involved near Brasov. I will update in due course .

Whoa! I did not say "over Orsova". I said in the Orsova - Turnu Severin area, and that should be interpreted in the widest possible sense based on my reading of the author's words which, in turn, were based on his reading of the 15th AAF operations summary (opsum).

L.