Staffelkapitan vs Staffelfuhrer?

[John Manrho]

Kaczmarek,

I agree, but do you know what was meant with a "Kapitänslehrgang"? This was stated to me by former St.Kap. as necessary to become St.Kap. It seems to me there was more to it than just being formally appointed Staffelkapitän.

To be absolutely certain if somebody was Staffelführer or Staffelkapitän one needs to assess as many documents as possible. NVM may help but also Soldbuch-entries, letters to relatives of KIA/MIA pilots, etc.

cheers,

John

[Horst Kube]

Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken

Hi, John

For your information a short list of persons listed as Staffelkapitäne with rank Leutnant (there are more):

Heinz Ebeling, 9./J.G.26
Eberhard Bock, 3./J.G.3
Heinz Berres, I./J.G.77
Willi Hörner, III./St.G.2
Friedrich Sellhorn, II./S.G.3
Georg Klauer, 1./N.S.Gr.2
Walter Kropp, III./J.G.301
Fritz Vinder, II./S.G.2
Heinrich Hackler, III./J.G.77
Hans-Ulrich Jung, III./J.G.3

I did not mean that you had to be a Tr.O. in order to become a Staffelkapitän.


Regards,
Andreas B

Hi Andreas, you are totally right

I agree with the other the cracks of this forum, but:

In my opinion the original/former question were about the diffecence between a

Staffelführer

or a

Staffelkapitän

The discussion should not be led about if a none officer or if an officer had the special qualification, but:

If a Staffelkapitän was shot down and/or had problems during the combat(personal and/or technical) he had to be replaced by the next best, in the most cases by the most experienced pilot - disregarding his rank -

There are so many examples for this theme already in this thread, so I do not want to multiply them.

One thing which may give us to think us about from veterans as Walter Schuck, whom I asked:

Staffelführer ... Staffelkapitän

who remembers about the last days of war:

Oberleutnant Hans "Waldi" Waldmannn was Staffelkapitän of the 3,/JG 7 until the 18th of March 1945.

Short afer a scramle on the 18th of March 45 in Kaltenkirchen/Hamburg, he collided with his co, Hans Dieter "Hadi" Weihs and his Me 262.

Weihs could land his damaged a/c, Waldmann lost his life.

After the death of "Waldi" Waldmann, the officials did not announce "Hadi" Hans Dieter Weihs to be the next after Waldi Waldmann,

because they did not trust simply the blank sheets of the "talks" of Mr. Hadi Weihs.

Hadi Weihs, surely was a good fighter pilot, but his reputation among the other "Aces" was not so high.

Anyway, the officials did not believe Hadi Weihs story of the real ongoings of the 18th of Aptil 45 and made him (unespected to me) not ... so ... responsible for the death of Waldmann.

Weissenberger ordered Walter Schuck to overtake the 3. Staffel JG 7 as a Staffelkapitän on the 26th of March 1945.

In the meantime, a certain Oberleutnant Wagner was Staffelführer of the 3./JG 7, before Staffelkapitän Oberleutant Walter Schuck overtook the Staffel (3./JG 7) as as Staffelführer.

This is certified and true.

All the best, Horst

[John Manrho]

Horst,

I am a little confused regarding your post. Can you explain on what part Andreas is right? That it did not make a difference if you were (Tr.O) or (Kr.O) is already not debated.

If you state that a Leutnant could be a Staffelkapitän I would like to see proof of that.....when Schuck became Staffelkapitän of 3./JG 7 he was already an Oberleutnant....so what are trying to say?

Thanks,

John

[Horst Kube]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

Horst,

I am a little confused regarding your post. Can you explain on what part Andreas is right? That it did not make a difference if you were (Tr.O) or (Kr.O) is already not debated.

If you state that a Leutnant could be a Staffelkapitän I would like to see proof of that.....when Schuck became Staffelkapitän of 3./JG 7 he was already an Oberleutnant....so what are trying to say?

Thanks,

John

Hi John,

Schuck was promoted with the rank Leutnant "mit Wirkung zum 1. Juli 1944", see promotion document in his book "Abschuss", page 163.

Nearly at the same time (by end of July 1944) Major Heinrich Ehrler, Geschwaderkommodore of JG 5, named Schuck to be Staffelkapitän of the 10./JG 5 in Petsamo.

He still was Leutnant and Staffelkapitän of the 10./JG 5 in Gossen/Norway after the Germans had to withdraw from Petsamo. He kept this position as Staffelkapitän of the 10./JG 5, even after the 7th of November 1944, when he promoted to Oberleutnant. The rest (JG 7) you know.

Hope this helps.
All the best, Horst

[Kaczmarek]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

Kaczmarek,

I agree, but do you know what was meant with a "Kapitänslehrgang"? This was stated to me by former St.Kap. as necessary to become St.Kap. It seems to me there was more to it than just being formally appointed Staffelkapitän.

To be absolutely certain if somebody was Staffelführer or Staffelkapitän one needs to assess as many documents as possible. NVM may help but also Soldbuch-entries, letters to relatives of KIA/MIA pilots, etc.

cheers,

John

Hi John,

I don´t know the term "Kapitänslehrgang" but I know the term "Verbandsführerlehrgang". Some of the former fighterpilots tell me he were commanded to such course to become St.kpt.
It is fact that the terms Staffelführer and Staffelkapitän were often mix up today because of ignorance. Im not sure whether "Verbandsführerlehrgänge" were still carried out to the end of war. The more experienced available officer then led the Staffel.

Kaczmarek

[John Manrho]

Hello Horst,

OK, you mean Lt. Schuck's period with 10./JG 5. I am pretty much convinced that he was officially Staffelführer of 10./JG 5 from August 1944 onwards and not Staffelkapitän. Perhaps Eric's next volume on JG 5 will show more details....

Hello Kaczmarek,

Verbandsführerlehrgang can't be the trick, that was established much later. Before that we already had Staffelführer's and Staffelkapitäne...perhaps somebody else can clear this up?

Thanks,

John.

[Horst Kube]

Originally Posted by John Manrho

Hello Horst,

OK, you mean Lt. Schuck's period with 10./JG 5. I am pretty much convinced that he was officially Staffelführer of 10./JG 5 from August 1944 onwards and not Staffelkapitän. Perhaps Eric's next volume on JG 5 will show more details....

Hello Kaczmarek,

Verbandsführerlehrgang can't be the trick, that was established much later. Before that we already had Staffelführer's and Staffelkapitäne...perhaps somebody else can clear this up?

Thanks,

John.

John,

you are definetely wrong.

Schuck was officially made to a Staffelkapitän (not a Staffelführer) onwards from July 1944 by the Geschwaderkommodore Major Heinrich Ehrler in Petsamo of the 10./JG 5.

This is fact.

You can not false the facts/history by - as you say - tricky meanings.

Sorry, if this does not fit into your "clearings". I can not help you with other ideas.

Best, Horst

[John Manrho]

Hello Horst,

Very funny, I wasn't aware of any tricks or me trying to falsify history or facts.....

thanks,

John.

[VtwinVince]

I think the timing of when during the war an officer was appointed as Staffelkapitaen might be noteworthy. I can only comment on my uncle's experiences, as he underwent a Lehrgang at the Fliegeruebungsstelle Frankfurt\Oder before the outbreak of war. Perhaps later in the war officers with suitable front-line experience were made Staffelkapitaen without the requisite Lehrgang.