Battle of Britain Bf109E found in India a few years ago?

[Andy Saunders]

Larry

Thanks for that! Fascinating stuff and it certainly explains some "odd" features on the paintwork of this aeroplane. The blistering Indian sun, over several decades, has clearly faded the paintwork through to the original colouring and revealed what is underneath very effectively indeed.

I am not hopeful of a "new" photograph of this aeroplane at the crash site turning up - but you never know.

The MU Salvage Report is just a bland collection order giving aircraft type, location (Lower Hardres), condition and date of removal. Nothing else there of any significance at all.

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

Peter,

Great photo Peter! Simply the best!!

This aircraft is listed as down on November 2nd as "Black 6," which is obviously one of the numbers that were on there. Is it possible to interpret the "Black 6" layer (or two layers of the same number as Ruy suggests) as being on top, rather than second under the "5"? I haven't studied this that carefully, but that looks like a possible interpretation. Whoever sanded down through the layers would know best what this was (and maybe is the source of your listed interpretation). I note that both the German report of the loss (Prien JFV 4/II, P. 273, lists this as Black 6), and the British crash (G) report ("markings black 6+1 all in black outlined white") indicates that the final marking should be a "Black 6" with a thin white outline. Although I have photos of two previous forced-landed "Black 6s" of 8./JG53 during 1940 in my DB, I don't have any photos of this particular a/c down "in situ," or during the transfer or at the time of its arrival in India. However, I'm sure that some were made at the time by the local press of this "gift" from Britain, or shortly thereafter if the aircraft was subsequently put on public display. Is anyone aware of the existence of any contemporary photos of this bird? That would probably immediately settle this issue.

Thanks to all for your comments and information. Most informative and helpful.

Regards,

Hello Larry,

Whilst I know very little about Luftwaffe camouflage and markings I have considerable knowledge on recovered Indian Spitfires whose paint has been subjected to the same climatic degradation and erosion as the 109.

To perhaps understand what happens it might help if you drew yourself a diagram of a cross section through the paint at an area of interest say 18 inches wide. Allow each element of paint to be say 1/4 inch thick. First layer, primer, undercoat, top coat etc, number 8, number 6 in white with number in black to form border and so on up to number 5. Allow also for additional local top coat to cover previous numbers. You now have a sandwich of some 10 plus elements stepped down to the original top coat.

Depending on the thickness and the durability of the paint , Indian climatic conditions will start to erode the exposed surface of that 'sandwich'. The last paint on, the 5, will erode first until after a number of years it will be almost gone, but in the process it will have protected the immediate layers beneath. This is why there appears to be both black and white versions of the same numerals.

What appears to be a yellow 8 may well have been any colour 8. The numeral has protected the top coat as it has eroded, leaving a witness mark in the top coat.

To help, here is a shot of the other side - starboard.



And here is a shot showing the red spot that Andy mentioned. In this shot you can see a sloping tidemark line...the Indian Heritage line, the line that the water came up to every year.



...and the 'come and get me message and phone number' on the rear port.


There is a British way of doing business and the there is an Asian way of doing business and some sometimes they are in conflict. I would not underestimate the strength of the owner's legal team in pursuing claims of malpractice. The Indian press have already had to print a retraction on some of their wild speculation.

PeterA

[Andy Saunders]

Excellent photos, as ever, Peter!

The main aircraft data plate on the front port side of fuselage, between engine and cockpit and just above wing root, had been removed along with all other data plates! The rivet holes and shape outline showed it to clearly be an Arado manufacturers data plate with its distinctive triangular shaped design, and Arado certainly seems to fit the W Nr range. However, although I have seen and had other Arado manufacturers plates (eg Fw 190 and 189's) I have never seen an example of an Arado built 109 E main data plate. I have never heard of one being found in 1940 period wrecks, only the rectangular Erla type plates. Indeed, have never seen a photo of one on a 109 E - but then, have never really been looking!

Would just be interested to see if any data plate collector has a 109 E, Arado built, main data plate?

As for the tidemark line....I don't think it was just water. From the smell coming from some parts of the airframe when I looked at it I suspect it was raw sewage. Not exactly the way you would expect someone who evidently cherished an aeroplane like this to actually store it for a few decades, really.

[Peter D Evans]

Just to echo Andy's comments Peter... thanks for sharing these excellent images with us

Cheers
Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

[Larry Hickey]

Peter,

Again, my deep appreciation for the photos. Is it now certain that this was, in fact, "Black 5" rather than "Black 6" as of the date of shoot down? This is in conflict with both Germany and British reports if it is "Black 5."

Regards,

[PeterA]

Originally Posted by Larry Hickey

Peter,

Again, my deep appreciation for the photos. Is it now certain that this was, in fact, "Black 5" rather than "Black 6" as of the date of shoot down? This is in conflict with both Germany and British reports if it is "Black 5."

Regards,

Larry,

There is room for doubt, particularly on one side, and I will spend some time tomorrow at high resolution to bottom this out.

It is possible that the topcoat painting out, before applying the next number, may be confusing the interpretation of the images.

Ideally I would like to re-inspect the fuselage.

PeterA

[Andy Saunders]

Hmmmmm....!!

I have convinced myself on one of the views that it was "Black 6", but now I am not so sure.

Peter's evidence would tend to suggest, I think, that it is "Black 5"...or have I misunderstood your rationale, Peter?

Interesting.

UPDATE: Your post answers this thus far. Will await your deliberations.....!

[VtwinVince]

Is there any information as to the fate of Xavier Ray?

[Andy Saunders]

He was still living a few years back. I believe Chris Goss was in contact with him. Last I heard, after the discovery of "his" 109 E, he was not interested in talking about it or his experiences. Likewise Horst Perez, pilot of W.Nr 1190 downed on 30.9.40 and now displayed at Duxford. I took the bull by the horns and knocked on Perez's door in Munich in 1976. It was not exactly a fruitful cold-call!

[Artist]

I don't post much but, WOW! by the look of the photos India really cares a great deal about the heritage of this aircraft. Or, after selling it they found out its real worth! Robert