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  #1  
Old 2nd August 2013, 16:11
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
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Question I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
Hallo gentlmen.

I am looking for losses of Fw190A of I./JG51 and Bf109F(-2?) of IV./JG51 in Velikije Luki (grid 35 Ost 07xxx and around) area during winter 1942-43.

Any help is highly appreciated.
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Old 2nd August 2013, 21:39
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
I have the following (contains all FW 190A -losses of I/JG 51 and Bf 109F-2 losses of IV/JG 51 in that winter):
1942-10-30 3./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2281 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Bruchlandung infolge Flakbeschuß. Bruch 90 %.
1942-10-30 3./JG 51 FW 190A-3 5430 Notlandung infolge Brennstoffmangel und Verorientierung. Bruch 10 %.
1942-10-30 3./JG 51 FW 190A-3 137010 Notlandung infolge Brennstoffmangel und Verorientierung. Bruch 10 %.
1942-11-09 1./JG 51 FW 190A-2 445 Motorschaden. Bruch 10 %.
1942-11-11 1./JG 51 FW 190A-2 500 Motorschaden infolge Flakbeschuß. Bruch 75 %.
1942-11-11 3./JG 51 FW 190A-3 132266 Motorschaden. Bruch 10 %.
1942-11-14 3./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2276 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Fahrwerkschaden bei Landung. Bruch 10 %.
1942-11-22 1./JG 51 FW 190A-3 291 5 km nördlich M. Ssytschewka Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 45 %.
1942-12-04 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 501 Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 10 %.
1942-12-10 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 527 Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 10 %.
1942-12-10 Stab I/JG 51 FW 190A-3 2264 Nördlich Ssytschewka Absturz infolge Jägerbeschuß und Aufschlagbrand. Bruch 100 %.
1942-12-14 1./JG 51 FW 190A-3 438 2 km östlich Wjasma-Süd Absturz infolge Feindbeschuß und Aufschlagbrand. Bruch 100 %.
1942-12-14 Stab I/JG 51 FW 190A-3 539 Bei Torbin 10 km südlich Bjeloj Absturz infolge Flakbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
1942-12-17 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2193 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Bombenwurf. Bruch 100 %.
1942-12-17 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2229 Vermutlich Motorschaden. Bruch 30 %.
1942-12-17 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2261 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Bombenwurf. Bruch 30 %.
1942-12-17 3./JG 51 FW 190A-3 512 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Bedienungsfehler. Bruch 10 %.
1942-12-17 3./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2258 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Fahrwerkschaden infolge Feindbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
1942-12-26 3./JG 51 FW 190A-2 499 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Überschlag bei Landung. Bruch 30 %.
1942-12-29 1./JG 51 FW 190A-3 230 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Beim Start ausgebrochen. Bruch 15 %.
1943-01-09 1./JG 51 FW 190A-3 495 100 m westlich Kolosowka östlich Wjasma-Süd Absturz infolge vermutlich Vereisung. Bruch 100 %.
1943-01-16 1./JG 51 FW 190A-2 5413 Fl.Pl. Isotscha Technische Mängel. Bruch 10 %.
1943-01-16 3./JG 51 FW 190A-2 533 Fl.Pl. Wjasma-Süd Bedienungsfehler. Bruch 55 %.
1943-01-17 1./JG 51 FW 190A-3 443 7 weiße 2 km nördlich Bahnhof Tschernosem bei Welikije-Luki Zusammenstoß in der Luft mit FW 190A-2, Werk.-Nr. 2156. Bruch 100 %.
1943-01-27 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2283 Bauchlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 25 %.
1943-02-03 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 242 Motorstörung. Bruch 15 %.
1943-02-21 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 501 Fl.Pl. Orel Bruchlandung. Bruch 15 %.
1943-02-22 Stab I/JG 51 FW 190A-2 2205 Fl.Pl. Orel Beim Start ausgebrochen. Bruch 70 %.
1943-02-23 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2265 9 schw 15 km nordwestlich Schisdra Absturz infolge Jägerbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
1943-03-07 2./JG 51 FW 190A-2 5474 Motorschaden infolge Erdabwehr. Bruch 100 %.
1943-03-09 2./JG 51 FW 190A-3 2267 Sloboda Notlandung infolge Brennstoffmangel. Bruch 60 %.
1943-03-20 3./JG 51 FW 190A-5 152559 Fl.Pl. Orel-West Zusammenstoß bei Landung mit FW 190A-5, Werk.-Nr. 157226. Bruch 30 %.
1943-03-20 3./JG 51 FW 190A-5 157226 Fl.Pl. Orel-West Zusammenstoß bei Landung mit FW 190A-5, Werk.-Nr. 152559. Bruch 30 %.
1943-03-26 2./JG 51 FW 190A-5 150856 Fl.Pl. Orel-West Bedienungsfehler beim Start. Bruch 80 %.
1943-04-04 Stab I/JG 51 FW 190A-5 152668 4 km südlich Orel-West Absturz und Aufschlagbrand. Bruch 100 %.
1943-04-05 I/JG 51 FW 190A-4 142450 Absturz infolge technischer Mängel. Bruch 100 %.
1943-04-06 3./JG 51 FW 190A-5 1501228 Fl.Pl. Schatalowka-West Bruchlandung. Bruch 30 %.
1943-04-15 2./JG 51 FW 190A-5 157267 Fl.Pl. Orel-West Rohrkrepierer. Bruch 25 %.
1943-04-15 2./JG 51 FW 190A-5 1501165 Fl.Pl. Orel-West Rohrkrepierer. Bruch 10 %.
1943-04-21 1./JG 51 FW 190A-4 147199 6 km südlich Cromy Absturz nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
1943-04-21 3./JG 51 FW 190A-5 152557 Fl.Pl. Orel-West Bei Landung ausgebrochen. Bruch 15 %.

1942-10-15 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 12966 Fl.Pl. Dugino Bruchlandung infolge Bedienungsfehler. Bruch 60 %.
1942-10-22 12./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 9621 45 km nordnordwestlich Orscha - Boguschewskoje Notlandung infolge Rohrkrepierer beim Übungsschießen. Bruch 90 %.
1942-10-26 Stab IV/JG 51 Bf 109F-2 12941 3 km südlich Djurkowa bei Witebsk Absturz bei Notlandung infolge Motorschaden. Bruch 100 %.
1942-10-28 12./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 5636 Motorschaden. Bruch 50 %.
1942-10-28 12./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 5707 Bei Witebsk Notlandung infolge Motorstörung. Bruch 100 %.
1942-10-30 11./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 9185 Fl.Pl. Witebsk Bombenwurf. Bruch 40 %.
1942-11-09 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 6779 12 weiße 20 km nördlich Welisch Notlandung jenseits infolge Kühlertreffer. Bruch 100 %.
1942-11-10 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 12878 5 weiße Bei Surasch Absturz infolge Lagerbrand. Bruch 100 %.
1942-11-11 11./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 6725 Fl.Pl. Witebsk Bombenwurf. Bruch 20 %.
1942-11-11 11./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 9199 2 schw 15 km nordwestlich Welisch Notlandung jenseits infolge Motorschaden nach Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
1942-11-11 12./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 12621 Fl.Pl. Witebsk Bombenwurf. Bruch 20 %.
1942-11-11 12./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 12695 Fl.Pl. Witebsk Bombenwurf. Bruch 20 %.
1942-11-27 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 12842 < Südwestlich Welikije-Luki Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
1942-11-30 IV/JG 51 Bf 109F-2 5785 Bei Surash Notlandung infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch 25 %.
1942-11-30 IV/JG 51 Bf 109F-2 12808 Bei Surash Notlandung infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch 25 %.
1942-11-30 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 8913 Notlandung infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch 25 %.
1942-11-30 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 9638 Notlandung infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch 95 %.
1942-11-30 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 12873 Bei Surash Notlandung infolge Schlechtwetter. Bruch 15 %.
1942-12-17 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 9636 11 weiße Raum Welikije-Luki Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.
1942-12-17 12./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 6654 Notlandung infolge Motorstörung. Bruch 50 %.
1943-01-09 10./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 5540 13 km südwestlich Oserischtsche Absturz infolge unfreiwilliger Bodenberührung bei Überführung von Witebsk. Bruch 100 %.
1943-01-27 11./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 8194 Fl.Pl. Isotscha Bombenwurf. Bruch 50 %.
1943-01-27 11./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 9565 6 km südöstlich Fl.Pl. Isotscha Absturz infolge Feindbeschuß. Bruch 100 %.
1943-01-28 12./JG 51 Bf 109F-2 9590 9 braune Südsüdöstlich Sauchanowo Unbekannt. Bruch 100 %.

Matti
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Old 3rd August 2013, 09:40
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matti Salonen View Post
1942-12-17
10./JG 51
Bf 109F-2
9636
11 weiße
Raum Welikije-Luki Luftkampf. Bruch 100 %.

1942-12-17
12./JG 51
Bf 109F-2
6654
Notlandung infolge Motorstörung. Bruch 50 %.

Matti
Thanks gentlmen, very much!

More quesions:

Quote:
Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen
IV./JG51
12.42 - Abgang
Insgesamt - 14
durch Feindeinw. - 2
ohne Feindeinw. - 3
Uberholung - 9
an andere Verbande - 0
But in lists we see only 1 (of 2) - from enemy action, and only 1 (of 3) - without anemy ation.
Also, 9 Bf109F-2 were damaged and sent to repair stations for overhowl.
Is that mean that those lists are incomplete?
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Old 3rd August 2013, 11:41
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
When looking up Stalingrad transport losses I noted some Velikji Luki losses including these for JG51 as follows:-

17-12-42 Bf109F-2 white11 9636 10/JG51 Ltn. Rolf Kiekert missing

17-01-43 collision in the air between Maj. Marl-Gottfried Nordmanning RK Kom. in 2156 . and Oblt. Rudolf Busch St Kap 1/51 + in 443. Nordmanning reported with 78 vic. did not fly again following accident. Believe this is on the Aircrew Remembrance Society site.

I noted that 7/JG54 had losses in the area on 14th and 15th Jan 43,

Regards

Brian Bines
Last edited by Brian Bines; 3rd August 2013 at 12:34.
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Old 3rd August 2013, 12:21
Evgeny Velichko's Avatar
Evgeny Velichko Evgeny Velichko is offline
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
Gents:
I find out, that IV./JG51 returned ti Velikiye Luki around 26.01.43, and flew there to mid.february (losing StaKa 10./JG51). Any losses of Fw190 of IV./JG51 in early february known?
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Old 3rd August 2013, 13:08
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
I think, that any of the lists is not necessarily incomplete (or contain only minor shortcomings). The problem is, that the lists were for different purposes. Loss reports (both GQM and NVM) were simply reports of material of personnel losses and Bestandlisten was a accounting system to show the aircraft situation of the Gruppe. So it was a statistical listing of the number of aircraft in a certain date and possibly compiled by the clerk using date of signed receipt forms for incoming aircraft and date of signed dispatch note of the aircraft sent from the Gruppe (or loss date, if it was a total loss) for outgoing aircraft. Therefore some changes are in fact in the previous or next month account. Also, the aircraft with less than 30 % damages (even below 10 %, which were not reported) could be sent to industry, if they would need an overhaul in the near future.
The aircraft, which were sent to overhaul (Überholung) were mostly those, which had achieved the flight hour limit for overhaul and were not damaged.
Personnally I trust more the NVMs than Bestandlisten.

Matti
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Old 3rd August 2013, 14:18
Brian Bines Brian Bines is offline
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
The GQM for this peiod are poor quality and hard to read best I could make out were 1. 28-1 12/JG51 'F' Unkown cause and location Bf109 F2 9590 brown 9 100% Uffz. Erich Kasten missing. 2. 11-2 10/JG51 'F' Pl.Qu. 07561 due to Enemyfire Fw190A4 5777 100% Oblt. Bowing-Trendling killed,

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Brian Bines
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Old 3rd August 2013, 14:49
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Bines View Post
The GQM for this peiod are poor quality and hard to read best I could make out were 1. 28-1 12/JG51 'F' Unkown cause and location Bf109 F2 9590 brown 9 100% Uffz. Erich Kasten missing. 2. 11-2 10/JG51 'F' Pl.Qu. 07561 due to Enemyfire Fw190A4 5777 100% Oblt. Bowing-Trendling killed,

Regards

Brian Bines
Thx.
For Oblt. Bowing-Trendling - just "enemy fire", or "groundfire"?
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Old 3rd August 2013, 16:30
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
1943-02-11 10./JG 51 FW 190A-4 145777 Bei Dubnitza, 10 km nordwestlich Welikije-Luki Flakvolltreffer beim Tiefangriff. Bruch 100 %.
1943-02-15 10./JG 51 FW 190A-4 147136 5 weiße Fl.Pl. Isotscha Überschlag bei Landung. Bruch 70 %.


Matti
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Old 4th August 2013, 23:20
Jim P. Jim P. is offline
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Re: I./ & IV./JG51 losses, Velikije Luki, 11.1942 - 01.43
FW 190A-3, 2156, NORDMANN, Major Karl-Gottfried, 78, St., Stab, JG 51, schwarze, <<- + -, PD+SS*, , 17-Jan-43, Ges.Kom. Injured due to midair collision with FW 190A-3 WNr. 443. FSA., RK. This collision unnerved him and he didn't fly operationally again, Lw.Kdo.Ost/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IX.2, p.246; Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.49; Obermaier, p.47, , nördlich Tschernosem, 100%, F, , ,
FW 190A-3, 0443, Busch, Oblt. Rudolf, 38, I., 1., JG 51, weiße, 7 +, , , 17-Jan-43, Stkp. Killed due to midair collision with FW 190A-3 WNr. 2156., DKiG. Acting Gr.Kdr., Lw.Kdo.Ost/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.13; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, IX.2, p.276; Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.49; FB E. Laskowski, , 12km südöstlich Welikije-Luki, 100%, F, , ,

FW 190A-4, 5777, BÖWING-TREUDING, Oblt. Wolfgang, 46, IV., 10., JG 51, , , , , 11-Feb-43, Stkp. KIA due to Flak during low-level attack on Soviet vehicle column., RK. At Dubnitza (PlQu. 07 561) per loss., Lw.Kdo.Ost/Eins.Osten, Gen.Qu.6.Abt. (mfm #8)-Vol.14; Prien, et al, Die Jagdfliegerverbände, XII.2, p.157; Ring, JG 51 loss list, p.49; Obermaier, p.91, , 10km nordwestlich Welikije-Luki, 100%, F, , ,
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