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  #1  
Old 1st November 2006, 22:42
DaveM2 DaveM2 is offline
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Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

All

Does anyone have further information on this aircraft and Pilot Fw. Leopold Knier ?

TIA
Dave
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  #2  
Old 3rd November 2006, 09:38
Andreas Brekken's Avatar
Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

Hi, Dave

According to the information I have, Knier was one of a few german pilots that were in fact returned from Soviet captivity. I think the idea was to make these guys spies for the Soviets, but I do not believe they got to stay at the northern front very long after their return.

The hard facts:

Bf 109F-4/trop WNr 10145 coded 'Yellow 3' was shot down in aerial combat with multiple soviet fighters during an escort mission for Ju 88 bomber aircraft on July 19th 1942. According to the report from the Gruppenkommandeur Horst Carganico, 5 aircraft from 6./JG 6 started for this mission, the target being Rosta. About 15 kilometers north of Murmansk, the aircraft of Knier was crippled by a P-40 and he bailed out at about 3000 meters altitude.

After being captured by the Soviets he was returned to the German lines and came back to his unit on July 27th 1942.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=111326

Regards,
Andreas
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  #3  
Old 3rd November 2006, 11:43
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Csaba B. Stenge Csaba B. Stenge is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

Hi Andreas,

It is possible to know, how did he escape from the captivity, after spent 3 days as a POW in Murmansk? Was it a real report about the plan, that he was forced to be a spy? According to my knowledge, the spies were sent for quite long courses, so in this case, it is impossible that he got any training from the Soviet authorities (one week is not enough). I know, that some ex-POW Luftwaffe pilots were dropped after a training as spies (it happened with a Hungarian POW fighter pilot as well), but it is a different story (and sounds a bit odd to me).

Regards,

Csaba
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Old 3rd November 2006, 11:56
DaveM2 DaveM2 is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

Hi Andreas

Many thanks for that, interesting story! Parts of his aircraft were found in amongst other bits of wreckage now in the US.

regards
Dave
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Old 3rd November 2006, 13:00
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Andy Fletcher Andy Fletcher is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

A Fw Leopold Knier 3./JG 27 claimed 2 B-17s on 14Oct43, is this the same individual?
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Old 3rd November 2006, 13:50
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Fletcher View Post
A Fw Leopold Knier 3./JG 27 claimed 2 B-17s on 14Oct43, is this the same individual?

I believe so.. He is also quoted as serving with JV44 even later... What is interesting is he appears to have never served back on the Eastern Front after his 1942 incident - Which does lend some evidence to the 'Spy' story

The only issue I have is he had got 5 claims before his time with 3./JG 27 - does any body know what they are?
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Old 3rd November 2006, 20:00
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Andy Fletcher Andy Fletcher is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

Hi Paul,

Here are Knier's claims with JG 5

Date; Unit; Claim; Number

15May42; 6./JG 5; Hurricane; 1st
28May42; 5./JG 5; Pe-2; 2nd
01Jun42; 5./JG 5; DB-3; 3rd
23Jun42; 6./JG 5; Hurricane; 4th
07Jul42; 6./JG 5; Hurricane; 5th
13Jul42; 6./JG 5; Airacobra; 6th

Source: Die Jagdfliegerverbände der Deutschen Luftwaffe Teil 9/III - Prien/Stemmer/Rodeike/Bock

Best Regards

Andy
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Old 3rd November 2006, 21:46
paulmcmillan paulmcmillan is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

Andy

Thanks very much!

Paul
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  #9  
Old 4th November 2006, 12:26
Rune Rautio Rune Rautio is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

The story of Knier is interesting, but it is questionable if his story was true - or if he just made it up to, say, get away from the Eastern Front...

He was shot down by a Soviet Jak-1 of 20. IAP VVS SF (JLt. Nuzhin) near lake Retinskoe, on the western side of Kola bay. This means that he had reasonable good opportunities to escape and get home. Such trip would easily take 10 days (he came back 27 July).

I can not say for sure that this was the story, but I find it odd that there are no mentioning of him being captured in the Soviet records and - more important - there is no interrogation report on him in the Soviet archives.

This is in contrast to the case with Fw. Josef Kaiser of 8./JG 5. He was shot down by AA over the Murmansk frontline on 26.12.42. He then voluntered as Soviet agent and was disembarked by Russian plane 31.05.43 at Nautsi. Reported himself to German troops 05.06.43.

For Kaiser the time span is more realistic for agent training - and there is an interrogation report on him in the Russian archives.

Rune
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  #10  
Old 4th November 2006, 17:58
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Wk.nr. 10145 'Yellow 3'

Hi, all.

As Rune says, and I tend to agree, there seem to have been little time to train Knier as a spy. If he was lying, we have to assume that by this time in 1942, there was a known fact amongst german aircrew that spending time in soviet captivity would mean that they would not be fighting on the eastern front anymore.

Also, I do not know if the eastern front was such a bad place to be for a pilot before end of 1942, seems several of the pilots on the western coast of Norway was quite eager to get to the Eismeer in order to participate in the action.

This will remain speculations, maybe the paper trail of Knier's exploit will be clearer in the future, and maybe it will not. The only thing we have this far is the fact that he returned after being shot down and stated that he had been in soviet captivity. For all we know he might have been captured by some kind of patrol, decided to kill his captors or run away from them, succeded and thus escaped to the german lines. The spy thing might have been something that have been added to the story later.

Regards,
Andreas
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