Moelders vs Galland vs Wick

[Nick Hector]

[quote=Franek Grabowski;259720]Nick
The list suffers from one problem. It is not possible to make such an attribution without the in depth knowledge on the enemy losses and circumstances. The marigin of error is just too great. Quite a number of losses were due to other reasons, bad weather, pilot errors or friendly fire. Lack of German combat reports is a serious issue as well.
As to particular cases from your list.


Hi Franek,


Given that there are only ever a finite number of enemy losses, I believe we can at least give our best attempt at this kind of thing and try to find out what happened in each engagement. Some are clear cut, others not so. If we keep our minds open and choose our wording carefully, we can make fair attributions. To leave it uninvestigated is to stay ignorant

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

Hi Franek,


Given that there are only ever a finite number of enemy losses, I believe we can at least give our best attempt at this kind of thing and try to find out what happened in each engagement. Some are clear cut, others not so. If we keep our minds open and choose our wording carefully, we can make fair attributions. To leave it uninvestigated is to stay ignorant

Yes, sure, but the problem is that such approach in regardof individual cases might be misleading, especially as there are plenty of gaps. For example there are several German claims which donot give time nor place. Also, general data available on Allied losses do not give accurate data on place of engagement.

[Nick Hector]

Would you say that is enough to render the whole practice of matching claims to losses invalid? You have, after all, helped me with some real and valuable corrections here

[robert]

Hi,

same source
9.9.38
1 I-16 from a Spanish squadron. Pilot was killed.
13.9.39
This is very puzzling. According to Soviet sources Moelders attacked alone the entire no.7 squadron of I-16s and he managed to shoot down 3-4 (!) I-16s. Reason of this debacle was that they were all young and inexperienced pilots. Lost aircraft were marked with following numbers: SM-125, SM-154, SM-178 and SM-192. One pilot was killed - Jaime Sau Colom, one was posted MIA and another was wounded. The last pilot - Spanish guy named Aresti - landed at enemy airfield - he stated that it was his first air combat and he became lost.
23.9.39
Most likely he attacked a formation of 6 SB-2 bombers. Between 09.40 and 11.00 hrs the bombers were in action and were attacked by 3 Bf109s. Four out of six bomber`s machine-guns jammed. Before the bombers could be helped by the fighters all three SB-2s of leading section were shot up (totally 100 bullet holes were found). 2 SB-2s were forced down at forward airfields and one of them must be belly-landed. 1 observer was wounded in leg and 1 air gunner in hand.

Robert

[robert]

Hi,

10.10.38
Moelders was a part of formation of six Bf109s, which attacked a group of 24 I-16s, which were protecting a formation of six SB-2s. One I-16 was hit and damaged by Bf109. Spanish pilot was wounded but he managed to nurse his shot-up fighter back to base.

Robert

[Nick Hector]

Originally Posted by robert

Hi,

10.10.38
Moelders was a part of formation of six Bf109s, which attacked a group of 24 I-16s, which were protecting a formation of six SB-2s. One I-16 was hit and damaged by Bf109. Spanish pilot was wounded but he managed to nurse his shot-up fighter back to base.

Robert

Thanks, Robert

Any chance you might have a name of the pilot who made it home? It would be helpful to have that detail if you can provide it

[GMichalski]

hi,

Thank you all for this info,
i need other source and version on the info i have on SCW,
i could add some little info..

23.9.38
SB-2s escort by I-16 from 2ª esc, MGs jammed on four of the SBs and several of the bombers where badly shot-up had to land in fighter bases, but none were lost, aircraft of Boris Stepanovich Sharonov with PT Nechiporenko badly damaged was able to land at Reus and other SB also badly damaged at Valls.

on fighters only what Nick have:

Grupo 21, *, Only one lost seems Margalef , i-16, 3ª esc, KIA

regards

[robert]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

Thanks, Robert

Any chance you might have a name of the pilot who made it home? It would be helpful to have that detail if you can provide it

Hi,

sorry no name given.

Regards

Robert

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Nick Hector

Would you say that is enough to render the whole practice of matching claims to losses invalid? You have, after all, helped me with some real and valuable corrections here

Well, matching claims and losses is not just collating known lists of claims and losses. Some research is necessary, as otherwise it could lead to wrong conclusions. You try to asses accuracy of claims of pilots, but it is not possible in such a simple way.