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  #51  
Old 18th May 2016, 21:16
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Continuation of the monologue

One of the records with missing Luftwaffe personnel on Deutsches Rotes Kreuz site:

4.(F)/122 Gfr Ferdinand Knopp Apr.1943 Black Sea.
Looks like Lfl 4 unknown loss during the timeframe in question. Or it is a date error?

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #52  
Old 18th May 2016, 21:56
Matti Salonen Matti Salonen is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

There is a NVM for this löss:
1943-03-25, 4.(F)/122, Ju 88 D-1, 430535, F6+VM, Poti - Batum
Flugzeugführer Gefr Knopp, Ferdinand, vermißt
Beobachter Lt.z.S. Kunkel, Werner, vermißt
Bordfunker Uffz Stawinoga, Bernhard, vermißt
Bordschütze Ogfr Engel, Jacob, vermißt
Jägerbeschuß um 10.35 Uhr. Bruch 100 %. Start um 07.45 Uhr.

Matti
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  #53  
Old 18th May 2016, 22:29
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Thank you, Matti!

Your answer is comprehensive as usual.

The plane was downed by 4 LaGG-3 (Cpt Kontsedalov, st.Sgt Chuprakov, Lt Ovsyannikov, st.Lt Topyrin) from 35.IAP PVO at 12:20 msk=10:20 with help of the radar direction. Ju88 crashed into the sea 35 km sw Batumi.

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #54  
Old 31st August 2023, 11:10
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

A case probably useful for understanding the procedure for listing of losses in GQM returns.

On 29.Sep.42 the pilot Heinz Welzel (I./StG77) was wounded by fire from the ground. In the GQM return this case was included only on 18.Dec.43, more than a year after the event (RL2-III/1196 Blatt 60). No info was written about the plane. However, on 3.Mar.44, another 2.5 months later, info was written: Ju87D-1 WNr 2568, 60% damage (i.e. the aircraft was to be written off).

There are quite a few cases where losses were entered many months later, and almost always several cases were entered at once, usually (or always?) with reference to Vordruck II. As I understand it, such additions arose as a result of some sort of reconciliation of flight personnel losses within the Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt., and aircraft data was entered in passing. But in this case the 6.Abt. didn't stop there, but apparently requested the info about the plane somewhere, and received it 2.5 months later.

It's possible, though, that it was somehow different.
Question: is there any info about the plane in the NVM report of I./StG77 containing info about Welzel's wounding? And when was this report written?

Best regards,
Andrey

Last edited by Andrey Kuznetsov; 31st August 2023 at 12:50.
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  #55  
Old 2nd September 2023, 11:43
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Is the date of NVM report in which Heinz Welzel (I./StG77) was mentioned really unknown?
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  #56  
Old 2nd September 2023, 18:33
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red-star25 red-star25 is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello Andrey,

the circumstance of the injury of Uffz. Heinz Welzel was reported with NVM 58 at 10.10.1942. The NVM did not give details of the aircraft involved.

This may be the cause for the delay within the GQM.

Regards

Dirk
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  #57  
Old 2nd September 2023, 19:04
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello Dirk,

thank you a lot!
It turns out that at first the loss was not included in the report due to the lack of plane data, than a year later this one was anyway included without info about the plane, and only in 1944 the data about the plane was entered. I wonder how it all worked. People in the same 6.Abt who worked with reports of personal losses and aircraft losses perhaps were sitting at neighboring tables. Probably, the Gen.Qu.6.Abt. was also listed among the recipients of the NVM report No.58?

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Andrey
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  #58  
Old 4th September 2023, 17:13
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red-star25 red-star25 is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello Andrey,

of the 7 copies from this report,
one copy was send to Gen.Qu. 6.Abtl. and one to
Wehrmachtsauskunftsstelle für Kriegsverluste und Kriegsgefangene (WASt.)
Some informations about the loss system can be found in RL 2-VI/213.
I had not yet the time, to go through this signature.

Regards

Dirk
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  #59  
Old 4th September 2023, 19:35
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Dirk, thank you again!

I've downloaded the file now, will try to find the relevant details.

Regards,
Andrey
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  #60  
Old 4th September 2023, 23:01
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

RL 2-VI/213 from 79.jpg: Geschichte der Abteilung Verlustwesen des OKL/LP. Very interesting!
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