Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum  

Go Back   Luftwaffe and Allied Air Forces Discussion Forum > Discussion > Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces

Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces Please use this forum to discuss the German Luftwaffe and the Air Forces of its Allies.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 24th May 2009, 10:48
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamburg / Germany
Posts: 558
Jochen Prien is on a distinguished road
Corsica, September 11th, 1943

Gentlemen,

on September 11th, 1943, III./JG 77 claimed three a/c shot down near Porto Vecchio and La Maddalena in Southern Corsica and Northern Sardinia respectively; these claims are documented for instance in the Tony Woods list.

According to some sources - amongst them the a/m list - the victims were three Italian transport planes, according to others however they were three Curtiss P-40 with identical times and locations.

I tend to prefer the first alternative - i.e. the Italian a/c - as I have found no information that would hint at some P-40s operating in this area on this day. However, I would be very happy if some member of our community would enlighten me and perhaps provide me with further details of this incident. ( BTW: I had no notion of this combat when I put together the JG 77 unit history 16 years ago, so don't go looking there ... )

Many thanks in advance and

regards

Jochen Prien
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 24th May 2009, 18:14
robert robert is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 1,890
robert is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Corsica, September 11th, 1943

Hi Jochen,

I have three victories of Olt. Wolfgang Ernst listed under this date between 10.23 and 10.40 hrs with possible victims:
S.79 278a Sq. MM24231 and S.79 278a Sq. MM24492

Regards

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 24th May 2009, 18:22
Gianandrea Bussi Gianandrea Bussi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 393
Gianandrea Bussi is on a distinguished road
Re: Corsica, September 11th, 1943

Dear Dr. Prien,

on 11 september 1943, S.79 of Raggruppamento Aerosiluranti were order to fly from Siena to Sardinia.
According to the infos present in the book “Cinque anni alla 253a Squadriglia” written by gen. Enrico Marescalchi, 253a Sq. commander, who flew one of the aircraft that made that flight (even though his formation wasn't attacked) and in the book “Nato per Volare” by Ottone Sponza (by then pilot in the 278a Sq.), one aircraft (Ten. Nannini, 252a Sq., 104° Gruppo) came back to Siena after having been attacked by five german fighters north of La Maddalena , damaging the aircraft in a "hurried" landing. The 278a Sq. formation took off after the Ten. Nannini landing. In the Bocche di Bonifacio area Sponza saw a CZ.1007 with flaps and undercarriage down, being chased by two Bf.109: then one of the german fighters attacked his S.79, that was hit and he had to crashland in the sea. Two Fw.190 then attacked the S.79 piloted by S. Ten. Coci, who had to go down in the sea too, near Capo Testa, The two other aircraft of the same units (Ten. Faggioni, Ten. Ruggeri) overflew at first Milis and then Borore (in Sardinia) but they came back to Siena because in the first field they didn’t get a green signal rocket and in the second one they get a red signal rocket and some hit by guns.
All the crewmembers of the Sponza and Coci aircraft managed to survive: the first ones came back to mainland Italy via Corsica; the second ones reached Sardinia
According to another source ( "Storia degli aerosiluranti italiani", by Gen. Carlo Unia) Nannini was attacked by 5 Fw.190 and the attack would be happened just off the Tuscany coast.

On 11 september 1943 the Raggruppamento Bombardamenti with its CZ.1007 flew from Perugia to Sardinia too.
According to the Gino Lodi “L’Aeronautica Italiana nella Guerra di Liberazione”, two CZ.1007 were shot down by flak in the Bocche di Bonifacio area. At least one other CZ.1007, flown by Ten. Sanseverino, was badly damaged by flak: Sanseverino, in his book “Le nuvole sotto”, writes that , before being hit by flak from barges in that area, he saw a Bf.109 that didn’t attack. He managed to land at Alghero. In the history of the 88° Gruppo (“88°, Storia di un Gruppo”) I read that the two CANT shot down by flak were from this unit.
In the book by Nino Arena “La Regia Aeronautica 1943-1946”, part one, he writes that german fighters shot down two CZ.1007 that day: than he mentions the heavy flak encountered by Italian bombers and the return fire made by some CZ.1007 crews against german fighters.
So, the CZ.1007 lost should be two, shot down by flak or, according to Arena, by fighters. The three aircraft claimed by III./JG 77 seems to fit to the loss of one or more CZ.1007.

Best regards

Gianandrea Bussi
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 24th May 2009, 18:37
Gianandrea Bussi Gianandrea Bussi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 393
Gianandrea Bussi is on a distinguished road
Re: Corsica, September 11th, 1943

Robert,
both the MM you mention are reported in the Arena book: but, according to "Coccarde tricolori" by G. Alegi and B. Catalanotto, one of them (24231) was still in service in january 1944, so it's doubtfull whether it was one of the two aircraft lost on 11 september 1943.

Gianandrea
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 24th May 2009, 18:51
robert robert is offline
Alter Hase
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Warsaw, Poland
Posts: 1,890
robert is an unknown quantity at this point
Re: Corsica, September 11th, 1943

Hi Gianandrea,

I got these serial numbers from somebody from Italy and I have no chance for cross-checking.

Regards

Robert
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 24th May 2009, 19:04
Jochen Prien Jochen Prien is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamburg / Germany
Posts: 558
Jochen Prien is on a distinguished road
Re: Corsica, September 11th, 1943

Caro Gianandrea,
dear Robert,

many thanks for your quick responses, which both would support the "Italian solution" of the problem; however, the victims were reported as one Cant and two Bredas, although we all know about the expertise in a/c recognition shown by many Luftwaffe fighter pilots. However: Were there any Bredas around on this day ?

Your very concise answer, dear Gianandrea, leaves me with another question: Just why were these units sent to Sardinia ? Were they to surrender to the advancing allied troops expected there before too long, were they to continue service alongside the Luftwaffe or what was their task ?

Many thanks again for your time and

kind regards

Jochen Prien
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 24th May 2009, 19:41
Gianandrea Bussi Gianandrea Bussi is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 393
Gianandrea Bussi is on a distinguished road
Re: Corsica, September 11th, 1943

Dear Jochen,

at that time, the only Breda in service - some aircraft modified as dive bombing trainers - operated as training aircraft at the Nucleo Addestramento Tuffatori at Lonate Pozzolo (VA).
AFAIK,none of them reached the south of Italy, Sardinian or Sicily: no mention of that in any book or document I've seen.
Because they were twin finned aircraft, I think that CZ.1007 - twin finned too - could be erroneously identified as Breda 88.

Aircraft of Raggruppamento Bombardieri and Raggruppamento Aerosiluranti were ordered to go to Sardinia in order to avoid seizure by the german and to reach areas not controlled by germans (Sardinia, even though situation was not so clear...) or controlled by allied: remember that italian government and the king with his family went to Brindisi too....
Many bombers, seaplanes and transport aircraft, plus some fighters and training aircraft coming from north and center Italy, dalmatian or grecian bases managed to reach South of Italy, or the two main island in the days that followed the armistice: many obeying to orders, other ones disobeying to orders....
So, for exemple, on 13 september 1943, the torpedo bomber ace Giulio Cesare Graziani "stole" an S.79 and flew from Fano to Catania with 4 other airmen; on 11 september 8° Gruppo CT (22 C.200, 2 Ca.133, 2 S.81) went to Decimomannu Sicily from Castiglione del Lago; in one of those days a lonely S.79 flew from Malpensa Bomber School to Sicily.
The number of aircraft that crossed the war lines in order to reach south of Italy or the two main isles has been calculated in more than 200.

Best regards

Gianandrea
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ju.52s, 24 September 1943 HAHalliday Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 1 5th February 2009 14:06
Paul Pascal USAF Evader, September 1943 Steve Brew Allied and Soviet Air Forces 8 16th November 2008 18:24
Re.2001 on 2 September 1943 B17F BRITE EYES Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 0 24th May 2008 06:07
September 6th, 1943 Jochen Prien Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 3 6th May 2007 18:46
1943: New 10./JG2 or 10 (Jabo)./JG2 ? Fredo Hara Luftwaffe and Axis Air Forces 2 21st March 2006 21:59


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 20:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004 - 2018, 12oclockhigh.net