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  #31  
Old 8th April 2014, 09:38
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello, Andrey.

Been a few days in the mountains skiing - will get back to our discussion later today.

Regards,
Andreas B
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  #32  
Old 8th April 2014, 21:22
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello Andreas,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken View Post
Been a few days in the mountains skiing - will get back to our discussion later today.
I’m glad to hear you!

For comparison, Soviet analogue (but daily, not monthly) of “Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen”, in attachment:

Attachment 10013

Explanation:

Form No.4
Combat strength report of 216.SAD for 16.4.1943 (made late in 15.4.43)
Columns:
1. Line number
2. Regiment
3. Dislocation (airfield)
4. Aircraft type
5. Serviceable planes on the airfield
6. Non-serviceable planes on the airfield
7. Has repaired [last 24 hours]
8. Has left
9. Has arrived
10. Losses
11. Sum of planes

On hands:
12. Pilots
13. Observers
14. Air gunners
15. Engineers
16. Technicians, Mechanics
17. Junior specialists

Combat-ready crews:
18. For daylight hours
19. Among them, for night also

20. Pilots outside the unit

Below the table remarks were written.

For example, for the famous 16.GIAP the following remarks:
Popovicheskaya airfield: 1 Airacobra on forced landing off Novotitarovskaya [column 8]
Krasnodar airfield: 8 Airacobras damaged in dogfights [column 6]
Column 8: 2 Airacobras FTR (Major Kryukov, jr.Lt Naumenko)
Column 20: 1 pilot in hospital

The form No.4 has varied a bit from one unit to other, the filling was also different. In some units it contained the factory numbers, for example.

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #33  
Old 9th April 2014, 14:32
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello, Andrey.

Very interesting data!

Trying to decipher my way through - think I have got the bases for 16. GIAP right - Popo?icheskaia and Kracnodar written directly in latin letters. WHat is the fifth letter in the first name in cyrillic? Think I will be able to locate the second one at least :-)

Interesting how Aerocobra and Kittyhawk is written - "Aerokobra" and "Kittikhauk" - guess they mimicked the pronounciation?

More from my side later on

Regards,
Andreas B
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  #34  
Old 9th April 2014, 19:07
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello Andreas,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken View Post
Popo?icheskaia
5th letter is cyrillic 'в'

Popovicheskaya (also PopovicheVskaya in some documents and maps) now is Kalininskaya (~50 km NNW Krasnodar)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken View Post
"Aerokobra" and "Kittikhauk" - guess they mimicked the pronounciation?
Yes

Regards,
Andrey
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  #35  
Old 20th May 2014, 17:41
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken View Post
I have attached a screenshot of an example of a report ...
In the attached document the column "Total über 60%" means (strictly speaking) that 60% damages were counted as repairable. Is it right?
According to all other accounts 60% means the lower limit of the irrepairable damages.

Also, let's return to "Er" mark after % of damages in GQM returns.
If really only total losses and items with "Er" mark were included in columns "durch Feindeinwirkung" and "ohne Feindeinwirkung" in Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen, the difference between losses in the sources in question is even higher than I wrote before.

Surprisingly few Lfl.4 losses during Apr.-Jun.43 has the "Er" mark.

By the way, a strange record on the page 10 on 22.5.43 (record 183): Lfl.2 30.4.43 7./JG77 Bf109G-6 wn 16569 70% (!) with "Er". Is it a typo?

Best regards,
Andrey

Last edited by Andrey Kuznetsov; 20th May 2014 at 19:46. Reason: typo
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  #36  
Old 14th July 2014, 21:27
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello friends and Andreas especially,

an addition to the untimely faded discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken View Post
Hi, guys.
Thus the unit was supposed to report losses under 60% also, and to indicate to which repair unit the aircraft were delivered for repair. If this was not indicated on the report sheet (column Bemerkungen - Comments) it was implied that the aircraft would be put back into operational state by local means (mentioned is local repairs at the unit, at the larger airfields with better facilities as opposed to the frontline bases - or by the fast repair units (Schnellreparatur-Kolonnen)).
In the GQM returns for Lfl.4 during Apr.-Jun.43 the remarks 'Er' (Ersatz) after % of damage are absent with two exceptions described below.

Transport units in the Lfl.4 area (not included in Lfl.4 and listed in GQM returns among "Transportverbände (Einsatz Osten)") has used the remark 'Er' really. I has counted 8 entries in the timeframe in question - 6 from TGr10 and 2 from III./TG3.

But in returns for Lfl.4 I has found 2 entries only - both from I./KG55 (ex-TGr10 mentioned above). Probably I./KG55 used the 'Er' remark by inertia as ex-transport unit.

Hardly to believe that among hundreds of damaged aircrafts none required the repair outside the unit!

It look like the 'Er' system hasn't worked in the Lfl.4 in the timeframe in question at least.

Any ideas?

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #37  
Old 16th July 2014, 09:38
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello, Andrey

I agree to your comment that this system has (probably not) worked in the area of the Luftflotte 4. There could have been specific orders for the units not to use this - as i have seen specific orders to units within Luftflotten to deviate from standard reporting practice (specifically Luftflottenkommando Süd-Ost which I believe was operating close to Luftflotte 4).

Sorry for the short answer and for letting this quite important thread die - will try to bring it back to life from my part after my vacation! (Family, sand, sea and sun is the priority these days...)

Regards,
Andreas
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  #38  
Old 16th July 2014, 12:29
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello Andreas,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andreas Brekken View Post
here could have been specific orders for the units not to use this - as i have seen specific orders to units within Luftflotten to deviate from standard reporting practice.
What is the reason of these deviations? Seems strange a bit.
It isn't a urgent question, I'll wait the end of your vacation

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #39  
Old 27th November 2014, 09:55
Andrey Kuznetsov Andrey Kuznetsov is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello Andreas,

do you have something new about the topic?

Best regards,
Andrey
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  #40  
Old 8th December 2014, 22:17
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Andreas Brekken Andreas Brekken is offline
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Re: Luftflotte 4 losses Apr.-Jun.1943: a comparison of the different data

Hello, Andrey.

As you might have seen the number of discussion I have commented on lately is rather low - I have been too busy in other areas of life to be able to allocate much time to hobbies.

Will see if I can sniff out these specific orders over the next few days.

Regards,
Andreas B
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