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  #51  
Old 25th September 2005, 18:16
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

Franek,


[CANNOT YOU UNDERSTAND, THAT THERE WAS NO WAR DECLARATION AND THAT IT REALLY DOES NOT MATTER ACTUAL TIME WIELUŃ WAS HIT???!!!]


I understand it very well. You are saying the whole war was a crime as well as the beginning of it. I agree. Yes, starting a war brings no solutions. But this is another bright topic.
Also another bright topic is the risk of entering into the war by few Poles who wanted to die for an at least German (and at the same time no Polish) city.

So in your opinion killing Polish civilians was a "war crime" in every case, even if completely not intended.

Due Hitler at first opened fire the killing of German civilians was fully allowed and shouldn`t be punished? In the context bombing of purely civilian targets by the RAF later in the war was right, because Hitler started the war against Poland? So if you declare the war to someone (as done on 3th September by British government to Germany) you can kill who you want to, without the risk to be punished for it?
It sound for me really strange.

Marius
  #52  
Old 26th September 2005, 00:42
kolekcj kolekcj is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

As the topic seems to be rather provocation, than attempt to build interesting disucssion, one has to answer himself why he takes part in it?
I do it only because Marius Emmerling cooperate with the same publisher that I do, and I wouldn't like to hear in futer that I have something in common with such a type of history investigation. The level of discussion is soo weak, that I bearly read the first page of it. Nevertheless I found answer to Marius question in his own post.

Marius Emmerling: "At first on 25th September Luftwaffe started bombing of Warsaw which also caused considerable damage to civilian districts. All earlier attacks were made against purely military targets. And don`t forget Warsaw was declared as a "fortress". Fact is it was a battle zone since 8th September as first German tanks tried to come in."

You state the date of first civilian attack yourself. Declaring some city to be a fortress does not mean that killing civilians in it is excused.

As said German general Ludendorff "Der krieg ist kein Rechenexempel". Therefor in Wielun could die more people than you count in your Rechenexempel. Your dobuts that Polish estimations are unbalanced ,because they considered Polish victims, could be accepted; if you would use the same rule for German sources considering German activity in WW II.

And one more thing that stroke me at the last page of the discussion.

Marius Emmerling: " So in your opinion killing Polish civilians was a "war crime" in every case, even if completely not intended."

Even today (no matter if in Poland, or in Germany) when you kill someone in not intended way, it shall be penalised. It is penalised, because it is strongy believed that one should act in such way, that others life won't be endangered and respected as much as possible.

I don't even hope, that this will make you think about some things in different way. Therefor this is my first, and last post in this topic.

regards,

Julian M. Skelnik
  #53  
Old 26th September 2005, 11:52
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

Julian,
you cannot rise the level of the discussion writing here such things like "provocation". On the contrary, you are rising it on a much lower level.
But for you it seems to be the only possibility to stay at your antique visions of German guilt on everything bad.

Many people were writing about German orders to bomb civilian targets by the Luftwaffe (in Poland) and at same time had manipulated original documents. I showed it describing the details concerning Trenkner and Gröhler. It can`t be for someone serious coming back to these sources and furtheron treat them as reliable.

I would it welcome to discuss about the question: why both authors did so?
And I would hear some opinions about both German documents I presented here.
The existing of these documents is giving us the information, that methods of bombing purely civilian targets probably were discussed, surely not only in Germany. I would it welcome if someby could present here a document where it is clear that such a target was selected and then bombed.

Bombing of Warsaw on the 25th wasn`t an attack on a purely civilian target, because the city was a battle zone since 8th September, in the end with more than 100 000 Polish soldiers in it. It was impossible to attack Polish troops there and not hit civilians.
As I remember the The Haag conventions were allowing in treating such places as battlefileds. Could somebody comment this?

Marius
  #54  
Old 26th September 2005, 12:24
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

Quote:
As I remember the The Haag conventions were allowing in treating such places as battlefileds.
Marius, I hope we see no more crying about the cowardly attack on Dresden for it was a defended city having military personel and military manufacturing in it.
  #55  
Old 26th September 2005, 13:24
Marius Marius is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

Kutscha,

??????????

Dresden was 1945, the war totally escalated. By the way, were Allied troops besieging Dresden at the same time?
Will you say 1939 Warsaw wasn`t defended?

Marius
  #56  
Old 26th September 2005, 15:19
Kutscha Kutscha is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

You were the one that mentioned Dresden back on pg 1.

You are the one crying about military targets and Dresden was full of them.
  #57  
Old 26th September 2005, 16:17
Boandlgramer Boandlgramer is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kutscha
You are the one crying about military targets and Dresden was full of them.
Very good Kutscha.

I was always looking for an List with all the military Targets in Dresden 1945.
Please post it here or in another Thread.
I have asked some " Dresdner " about such Targets, but a more complete List would be nice.

Hope you can help me.
Thank you.
  #58  
Old 26th September 2005, 18:37
Franek Grabowski Franek Grabowski is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

Mr Emmerling criticised me because of my claim of importance of so called 5th collumn and is tending to ignore it in any way.

However according to Polish sources, in a wreck of a He 111 downed by Włodzimierz Gedymin on 2.09.1939, a 4 page instruction entitled 'Merkblatt zur Bekanntgabe an die gegen Polen eingesetzten Truppen'. It was a summary of an NOKW-083 instruction of 23.08.1939 by Gen. Erwin Lohausen, who was responsible for German spec ops. It included callsigns and recognition markers for communication with the German minority and diversants.

How it worked is explained eg. by kpt. pil. Kowalczyk of IV/1 Dywizjon. In his report he mentioned that near Poniatów airfield there was a village of German colonists. Early on 3.09 Dywizjon lost wire connection, likely due to sabotage. There were seen signs to German airmen send from the village, at night by lights. A few times taking off aircraft were fired at by a machine gun from a nearby wood and kpt. Kowalczyk himself was shot at (missed) from a gun, when returning at night from a briefing on 2.09.

There are hundreds if not thousands of such accounts. I suppose Mr Emmerling will explain it is only a Polish sick imagination andtypical Polish lies.
  #59  
Old 26th September 2005, 19:13
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Ruy Horta Ruy Horta is offline
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Re: Bombing civilian targets by the Luftwaffe?

This thread is turning into a silly argument, I am closing it.
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