Sept. 9th, or 20th,1939?

[Dean M. Wick]

Seasons greetings: Wondering if anyone could provide clarification on the date's, of which appear to be possibly duplicate claims. On 9th Sept. Hptm. Wilhelm Leesmann( first name correct?)and Oblt Dietrich von Bothmer of Stab/JGr.152 are credited with claims on 2 French Bloch 200's around 1445hrs near Saarbrucken.This Info from "Fledgling Eagles" In Tony Woods claims lists,the same 2 pilots are credited with "battles" in the same area, at the same time,only the date is Sept. 20th. Shores mentions a Hptm Wiggers of the same unit as being involved on the 20th,but the claims list doesn't support this. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you. Dean.

[Peter Cornwell]

Dean,

Having looked at these claims during preparation of The Battle of France Then & Now I declare that I share your confusion. However, I am satisfied that the claims filed by Lessmann and von Bothmer were on 20 September, 1939, and not the 9 September as described in Fledgling Eagles. I believe that the French losses cited by Shores on that date were actually as follows:

GB II/31 Bloch 200 (163). Shot down by Bf 109s over Zweibrücken during reconnaissance sortie to Sierck-les-Bains. Believed that claimed by Oblt. Rhinow (Staffelkapitän) of 4./ZG76. Crashed in flames near Saarbrücken 1.45 p.m. Cmdt. E. Delozanne (Groupe Commandant), Lt. M. Joly, S/Lt. J. Charreire, Adjt. G. Petton, and Adjt. J. Gaillères killed. Aircraft lost.

GB I/31 Bloch 200 (132). Shot down by Bf 109s over Saarbrücken during reconnaissance sortie to Sierck-les-Bains. Believed that claimed by Lt. Hoffmann of 3./JG53. Crashed in flames near Zweibrücken 1.35 p.m. S/Lt. Béranger, and Lt-Col. Enselem (Escadre Commandant) captured unhurt. Adjt. Charpentier, Sgt. Senot de la Londe, and Sgt. Audoux captured wounded. Aircraft a write-off.

My copy of Tony Wood’s invaluable listing gives the claims on 20 September, 1939, as an unspecified ‘Bloch’ and a ‘Battle’ at 14.45 (CET) west of Saarbrücken. But having said that I regret that, to date, I have been unable to attribute them to any recorded Allied loss.

[Dean M. Wick]

Peter: Thank you for you quick reply. I look foreward to the release of your new book.You have been more than generous with your wealth of information on this forum,I'm sure just a taste of what the book will have to offer! Seasons greetings. Dean

[Dean M. Wick]

Peter; Sorry, I should have added this question to my previous post...Just wondering if you found any other reference to von Bothmer in any of your research? I know he eventually ended up working for Wolfgang Falck in the early stages of the nightfighter organization, but I have nothing on him in between. An earlier thread I had posted(couple months ago)came up empty. Cheers. Dean

[Stig Jarlevik]

Hallo Peter

Just like everone else, I am also looking forward to your book about the Phoney War and the ultimate battle for France in 1940.

However I am a bit surprised regarding your statement you have failed to link any of the claimed Battles of Sept 20th to any RAF losses. Should I take it you don't agree with the details in Shores Fledgling Eagles that K9242 and K9245 were the aircraft lost? Both losses are also confirmed in Air Britain's The K files.

Happy New Year everyone!!

Cheers
Stig

[Peter Cornwell]

Stig,

Thank you for your comments. The book will be out next month. I hope that it proves useful to you.

I did not say that I have failed to link any of the claimed Battles on September 20, 1939, to any RAF losses. My comment was in relation to the claims filed by LESSMANN & von BOTHMER as originally queried by Dean. It is those that I am unable to attribute to any recorded RAF loss.

So yes, you may take it that I do not agree the details as published in Fledgling Eagles in relation to the loss of K9242 and K9245 of No. 88 Squadron on September 20, 1939. Shores correctly gives the time of take-off at 10.00 hours and the engagement around 11.47 hours. As both claims queried by Dean were filed at 14.45 hours (CET) they cannot be related.

Dean,

I am sending you a PM regarding von BOTHMER.

Happy New Year everybody !

[Dean M. Wick]

Hi Peter: Thanks very much for PM! This helps greatly. Cheers. Dean

[Stig Jarlevik]

Thanks Peter

I am indeed looking forward a lot to your opus! It is going to be heaven sent to get an ENGLISH book about the campaign and not only have to grapple with my lousy French....

Wish someone would do a day-by-day book about the Battle of Poland as well.

I now understand that what you have against a solution on Sept 20th is the times listed in the reports. One solution of course is that, since the two last digits are more or less the same .47H and .45H, and, of course, a sloppily written SECOND digit 1 with a long "nose" added (don't know otherwise what that is called in English ) could be taken as a digit 4.... Worse mistakes have happened in the past I guess... But then of course did Germany and Britain in France use the same clock or were the Germans always one hour ahead? If yes, my theory goes down the drain...again...

Cheers
Stig

[Franek Grabowski]

Originally Posted by Stig Jarlevik

Wish someone would do a day-by-day book about the Battle of Poland as well.

I estimate about 10 years for a reasonable history.