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Old 3rd February 2008, 01:08
kaki3152 kaki3152 is offline
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V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

On June 2,1943 Sunderland N 461 of 461 RAAF Sq. fought a formation of V/KG-40 Ju-88s and claimed up to 6 Ju-88s. What were the true Luftwaffe losses? There is a good article by T. Gwynn-Jones on this episode in "Aviation History" March 199.
I should mention that I have "Bloody Biscay" by C. Goss and could find only a short account on this incident. Like the book, but it really needs an index..
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Old 3rd February 2008, 09:32
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

Hi

Seems this was rather wishful thinking from the Sunderland crew.

Yet to locate losses for V./K.G.40 on this date

Regards,
Andreas B
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Old 3rd February 2008, 09:34
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

Agree about index but the book was written some years ago and it was believed not to be necessary. However, despite the combat being monumental, there were no German losses. Some have got hot under the collar about this saying the Germans were lying but all the records I have confirm there were no losses
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Old 3rd February 2008, 23:51
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

Hi all:

Sorry to jump in here, but whilst on the subject of "running battles" twixt Sunderlands and Ju 88s can anyone confirm the claims of Cpl Billy Lillie, RG in 204 Sqn Sunderland N9046 on 3 April 1940 ?

In an action off the Norwegian coast the Sunderland was apparently attacked by six Ju 88s. Four made "conventional" attacks with gunfire while two others allegedly tried to bomb the flying boat !

The Sunderland gunners claimed one Ju 88 destroyed and another damaged and stated to have crash-landed in Norway where the crew set their aircraft on fire before being interned.

I am aware that Cpl (Sgt) Lillie was later killed on ops in Sunderland N9028.

Would be interested to know if THIS crew's claims were valid ?

BC
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Old 4th February 2008, 00:19
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

This is covered in my 'Sea Eagles Vol 1'. Oblt Karl Overweg-St Kap 5/KG 30 was shot down; Uffz Willi Erkens of the same Staffel was interned at Stavanger and it is possible that Lt Fritz Koch of 4/KG 30 crashed on return. They were shot down by Oblt Lorenz Weber of 8/JG 77 21 Jul 40; the German pilot was also shot down and killed. The answer is therefore yes!
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Old 4th February 2008, 22:58
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

I have heard that up to 80% of the Luftwaffe records were destroyed toward the end of the war. Could you please clarify for me whether you have seen records that indicate no losses or are there no records available stating there were losses?

Thank you,
Brian
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Old 4th February 2008, 23:57
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

Mr Goss,
Thank you for the details.
Sorry for digressing from the original enquiry.
My interest is that Bill Lillie came from Sudbury, Suffolk.
Regs,

BC
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Old 5th February 2008, 08:42
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

Hi, Brian

Loss records exist with most details for the period from 09.1939 - 12.1943. Further large parts of 1945 also still exist.

In addition, the statistical department of the Luftwaffe High Command made summary records with a little less detail and these are still available for the period from the start of Operation Barbarossa (22.06.1941) through January 1945, which at least give us which date a loss occured, which unit, which date it was originally reported, all this categorized for statistical purposes into 21 categories of losses.

No loss of aircraft from V./K.G.40 appear in these records at all for the given date, and I am also sure that Chris Goss has made further investigations into these claims in other related documents in preparation for his book.

(Kriegsmarine and Heer documents also include a fair amount of Luftwaffe related information, although of course more difficult to find in the wast amount left by these arms of the German armed forces).

Regards,
Andreas B
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Old 5th February 2008, 12:12
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

FYI, I have also checked Flugbuch, Luftflotte & Kriegsmarine reports for this day and no mention of any losses are made for 2 Jun 43 apart from acknowledging that there was a monumental combat
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Old 8th February 2008, 04:13
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Re: V/KG-40 Losses on June 2,1943

Thank you for answering my question, gentlemen. I am relieved to know that most documents survived history and are available. I am presently awaiting some records from the NARA in St. Louis and elsewhere - once I have them I will be starting my research on the Luftwaffe side. With your help and little luck, I hope to find what I am looking for!

Sincerely,
Brian
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