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  #1  
Old 12th April 2008, 13:58
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
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P-38 vs Bf 109 - Huge battles over Italy August/september 1943

Hi,
I'm interested about true Luftwaffe losses in few air combats with P-38 over Italy. Unfortunately I have only JG 53 History by Mr Prien, so losses of IV./JG 3 and JG 77 with participated at this combats are unclear for me.



20 August 1943
Pilots of 1st FG and 82nd FG claimed shot down 13 enemy fighters.
USAAF losses: five P-38s from 1st FG and three more from 82nd FG.

LW losses:
JG 53: no losses
IV./JG 3: ?
JG 77: ?

30 August
Pilots of 1st FG claimed eight enemy fighters, but lost 13 P-38.
Jg 53 losses: Bf 109G-6 'yellow 6' W.Nr Uffz. Leo Niesen KIA
IV./JG 3 and I./JG 77 losses: ?

2nd September
Pilots of 82. FG claimed 17 Bf 109, 5 M.C. 202, 1 Re.2001 and 1 Fw 190 USAAF losses: 10 pilots (8 KIA and 2 POW)

JG 53 Losses:
Hptm. Franz Schiess (67 kills, including 17 P-38) MIA Bf 109G-6 W. Nr 160022
Fw. Hans Feyerlein WIA Bf 109G-6 W. Nr 18618
Fw, Eugen Kurz WIA Bf 109G-6 W. Nr 18617

IV./JG 3 losses: ?
JG 77 losses: ?
Osprey P-38 Aces book says that Luftwaffe lost seven pilots on 2nd september battle.

If someone have IV./JG 3 or JG 77 book, I'm very interesting about German losses on that days.
Thanks
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Old 12th April 2008, 15:16
CENTURION CENTURION is offline
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Re: P-38 vs Bf 109 - Huge battles over Italy August/september 1943

Hi Gizmo,

based on wonderful Prien's books:

Unit - Time - Loc. - Claims/Losses - Combat Casualties

20 August 1943
I./JG 77 approx. 13:30 near Nola 1 P38 / 1 BF109 G6 (Uffz. Rolf Hartung, KIA)
IV./JG 3 approx. 13:30 5(?)P38 / no losses
(probably both units were facing the 82th Fighter Group)

30 August 1943
I./JG 77 approx. 12:20 Gaeta gulf 10 P38 / no losses
IV./JG 3 approx. 12:20 Gaeta gulf 6 P38 / 1 Bf109 G6 (Lt. August Siegel, MIA)
(other 5 P38 were claimed by the Italian 22nd Gruppo Caccia for no losses)

2 September 1943
I./JG 77 approx. 13:40 near Napoli 7 P38 / 1 Bf109 G6 (Stab. JG.77 Uffz. Einrich Merkel, MIA)
/ 1 Bf109 G6 (WNr. 18868) 10%
IV./JG 3 approx. 13:40 40km SW Napoli 5 P38 / 1 Bf109 G6 (FW. Friedrich Porth, MIA)
(another P38 was claimed by the Italian 22nd Gruppo Caccia for no losses)



Regards
Marco
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Old 12th April 2008, 15:25
Gizmo Gizmo is offline
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Re: P-38 vs Bf 109 - Huge battles over Italy August/september 1943

Thank you very much. I'm try to write an article about P-38s units over MTO, so your answer is very helpful for me.
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Old 12th April 2008, 19:58
Tomislav Haramincic's Avatar
Tomislav Haramincic Tomislav Haramincic is offline
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Tomislav Haramincic
Re: P-38 vs Bf 109 - Huge battles over Italy August/september 1943

Hello Gizmo and Marco,

Just to add some losses and additional data
20.08.43
JG3
Bf 109G-6 WNr.15835 20.08.43 IV./JG3 N.N., fuel shortage - emergency landung, SW Lucera - 25% (non-combat loss)
Bf 109G-6 WNr.18781 20.08.43 IV./JG3 N.N., landing accident, Fl.Pl. Foggia - 35% (non-combat loss)
JG53
Bf 109G-6 WNr.18531 20.08.43 II./JG53 N.N., take-off accident, Fl.Pl. Cancello - 35% (non-combat loss)
Bf 109G-6 WNr.20433 20.08.43 II./JG53 N.N., enemy return fire, SW Cancello - 20%
JG77
Bf 109G-6 WNr.160003 20.08.43 1./JG77 Uffz. Rolf Hartung (†), combat with P-38 - crashed, Fonta Villa di Neba (area Nola near Napoli) - 100%

30.08.43
JG53
Bf 109G-6 WNr.18782 30.08.43 4./JG53 Uffz. Leo Niesen (†), combat with P-38 - crashed, 1km NW Giugliano - 100% white 9+−
Bf 109G-6 WNr.20417 30.08.43 3./JG53 Uffz. Ferdinand Münkhoff (MIA), unknown reason, W Amanthea - 100% yellow 6+
JG77
Bf 109G-6 WNr.18146 30.08.43 III./JG77 N.N., Luftkampf - Absturz, Villa Massargia - 100%
Bf 109G-6 WNr.18897 30.08.43 Stab/JG77 N.N., handling error, Nocelli - 25% (non-combat loss)

02.09.43
JG53
Bf 109G-6 WNr.16397 02.09.43 2./JG53 Gefr. Wolfgang Schlüter (MIA), combat with Spitfire, 15km NW Tropea - 100% black 11+
Bf 109G-6 WNr.18617 02.09.43 6./JG53 Fw. Hans Feyerlein (WIA), combat - crashed, FSA, into the sea NW Ischia - 100%
Bf 109G-6 WNr.18618 02.09.43 6./JG53 Fw. Eugen Kurz (WIA), combat - crashed, FSA, into the sea NW Ischia - 100%
Bf 109G-6 WNr.160022 02.09.43 8./JG53 Oblt. Franz Schiess (Stkp) (MIA), combat with B-25 & P-38, 50km SW Ischia - 100% black 1+I
JG77
Bf 109G-6 WNr.18868 02.09.43 I./JG77 N.N., combat, SW Ischia - 10%
Bf 109G-6 WNr.160025 02.09.43 Stab/JG77 Uffz. Heinrich Merkel (MIA), unknown reason, Napoli area - 100% black <3+

I hope this helps you further in your work.

best regards,
Tomislav
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