20 April 1941, over Eleusis bay.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hi all, gents!

I am trying to find out a probable victor of Squadron Leader Marmaduke Pattle, who was shot down and killed by an Bf110 of II./ZG 26.

From this sourse:
http://surfcity.kund.dalnet.se/commonwealth_pattle.htm

I found following:

3 Hurricanes attacked a formation of Do-17Z’s (escorted by Bf110’s) over Piraeus:

Flight Lieutenant William Woods leading;
Sergeant Charles Casbolt;
Flight Sergeant Pierre Wintersdorff (a Frenchman)

1. (losses in order that appear) Wintersdorff was attacked by a Bf110 and wounded in one leg; his Hurricane was hard hit and he baled out into the sea from where he was soon rescued.

2. Sergeant Charles Casbolt was attacked from astern by Bf110 and had his rudder shot away.

After refuelling and rearming, 5 Hurricanes tok off and tried to attack a formation of “Ju88” (with escort of Bf110’s) over Eleusis bay:

Squadron Leader Marmaduke Thomas Pattle (KiA)
Flying Officer Vernon Woodward
Flight Lieutenant William Woods (KiA)
Flight Lieutenant George Kettlewell (WiA)
Flight Sergeant Leonard Cottingham (WiA)

3. Flight Lieutenant William Woods’s Hurricane caught fire and dived into Eleusis bay, killing him.

4. Squadron Leader Marmaduke Thomas St John ‘Pat’ Pattle’s Hurracane Mk.I (AS988) was attacked by Bf110 and it quickly began to blaze – there was an explosion, and the wreckage fell into the sea.

5. Flight Lieutenant George Kettlewell was attacked by yet another Bf110, and was forced to bale out when V7807 was badly hit.

6. Flight Sergeant Leonard Cottingham was hit by Bf110 and wounded, baling out of his stricken aircraft.

Flying Officer Vernon Woodward returned his Hurriacne Mk.I unhurt.

So, there:

1 Hurricanes were shot down + 1 damaged by Bf110 ~ 17:00 over Piraeus;
4 Hurricanes were shot down by Bf110 ~ 17:00 (a bit later after above) over Eleusis bay.

That give us an amount of 5 a/c lost and 1 damaged.

It is known the detailes of II./ZG 26 claims? The time of each claim is critical important.

Any RAF researcher could clarify the details of this 33 Sqdn. + 80 Sqdn. losses? Aircraft numbers and codes will be much appreciated.

[Franek Grabowski]

Evgenij, I would rather suggest to look for some narratives. You cannot make any tie ups based on time of claims, it is just too risky and unreliable.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Yep, Franek. Thats why I search any "documented storyes" - may be combat reports - related to this scirmish of both sides involved.

[robert]

Hi Evgeny,

I have following claims:

5/ZG26 Hptm.Theodor Rossiwall
5/ZG26 Olt.Sophus Baagoe
5/ZG26 Ofw.Hermann Schoenthier
5/ZG26 Uffz.Fritz Mueller
5/ZG26 Ofw.Theodor Pietschmann

Regards

Robert

[Evgeny Velichko]

Yes, Robert, thanks. But You see, without any "time" of that claims we cannot say any propositions. Also, the story above could be incorrect, and those RAF pilots could be shot down in other order.

As follow that story, the order of losses was:

1st - Flight Sergeant P. Wintersdorff;
Sergeant C. Casbolt - if he was damaged and 5./ZG 26 scored 5 victories (not 6) - that means that his Hurricane was not scored/confirmed to german pilots;
2nd - Flight Lieutenant W. Woods;
3rd - Squadron Leader M.-T. Pattle;
4th - Flight Lieutenant G. Kettlewell;
5th - Flight Sergeant L. Cottingham.

Now, we need to be sure that THIS order is right. Or not right. Only RAF documents could answer this.

Then, we need direct times of each claim.

Extract from KTB of 5./ZG 26, shown in Ian Allan's book, give us only:

20.04.41, Take off from Larissa, Kampfverband begleited und Tiefangriff over Piraeus Harbour. 5 abscusse scored.

[robert]

Hi Evgeny,

I don`t know in which order this claims were recorded. I only know that they were submitted after this combat.

Regards

Robert

[Graham Boak]

I don't believe the codes are known, and in the case of late deliveries to Greece were proabably not carried at all, as shown in photogrpahs of wrecks. Pattle's aircraft was a very late Hurricane Mk.1 (Canadian production) and so likely to be a late arrival in Greece, and carrying no codes. It was shown as such in Michael Turner's well-known painting of this combat.

I know of no better description than that in Shores/Cull/Malizia Air War over Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete, and he does not identify other Hurricanes in the Eleusis battle, but does mention at least six in the earllier fight. Pattle was shot down by a pair of Bf 110s, one of which was then shot down itself - either 3U+EN of Specka or 3U+FN of Leinfelder. If one of these was known to be the wingman of one of the other claimants, you have your man.

[Evgeny Velichko]

Hi, Graham!

Agree, but You see, that there were 8 Bf110 claimed by RAF, with actual losses of 2 and 1 damaged. And it is unknown, was "wingman of Pattle's killer" IN FACT shot down or not.

Also, thank You very much about detail of Pattle's aircraft!

[Graham Boak]

Yes, but the total of eight claims is for both battles, and includes mis-identified Do 17s (commonly mistaken for Bf 110s - and vice versa). Only one Do 17 was claimed against three known losses. Though the Fw 187 claimed should also be added to this list!

If we count in the two heavily damaged Bf 110s from the earlier battle with the Do 17s, then overclaiming in the later battle is much less excessive, and Kettlewell's "avenging" of Pattle's death more likely to be accurate. Seeing an aircraft fall into the bay is less likely to be a misclaim than many. (If that is confirmed in Kettlewell's report.)