German aircrew shot down over UK

[Brian]

Hi guys

Perhaps not normally openly discussed, but what do we know about German aircrew shot down over Britain being 'abused' by British civilians during the Battle of Britain, and possibly even later?

Cheers
Brian

[Chris Goss]

Quite a bit, including being 'abused' by military personnel. However, some tended to be local myths whilst it is a subject that many would rather forget

[Brian Bines]

A few years ago I was in touch with a pilot of JG3 taken POW on 31-8-40 and he said Oblt. Johann Loidolt was badly beaten when he bailed out the same day. More recently in a book it said Loidolt was fired on while on his parachute as he neared the ground being hit by shotgun pellets. As he landed at Hornchurch Sewerage Works he was beaten up by members of the LDV.

[Leendert]

Brian,

Perhaps those interested may want to read this link: http://www.fortunecity.com/campus/di.../PoWs/pows.htm

Not about possible abuse as such, but general info about life of German PoWs in England.
Perhaps a starting point to explore your question?

Regards,

Leendert

[Andy Saunders]

There are some cases recorded at NA Kew. Press clipping refers.

There are many other stories (not always substantiated!) of such treatment and I have had a few cases reported to me by ex Luftwaffe POW's. No doubt Chris Goss has, too. I don't have any particular reason to doubt the accounts some of these ex Luftwaffe men have given me.

Unfortunately, and however wrong it may be, instances of ill-treatment of POW's is a recurrent theme in every war.

[Peter Cornwell]

As mentioned, of course there were several cases of abuse (and worse) in Britain during 1940. The British are not immune from such irrational behaviour and when passions are running high you can forget about their 'stiff upper lip' and 'playing the game with a straight bat'. Sang-froid is French.

One of the better-known incidents took place at Kennington Oval on September 15, 1940, when a frenzied crowd of civilians (mainly women) attacked Oberlt Robert Zehbe of 1./KG76 a fact conveniently glossed-over, or deliberately ignored, during the making of a recent TV programme that preferred to perpetuate errors and repeat myths ad nauseam. One only has to track the fates of 'missing' German aircrew from aircraft that crashed in this country to find cases that defy rational explanation other than foul play but, understandably, these tend to be not too well documented officially. Conversely, there are also cases where the local hear-say suggests gruesome tales of the violent maltreatment of prisoners that does not stand up to any proper investigation. Witness the fate of the crew of the He111 down on East Wittering beach on August 26, 1940, who were supposedly shot dead as they emerged from the aircraft - an urban legend laid to rest in After The Battle magazine No.23.

So yes, these things happen in any so-called civilized country in war-time. The fact that they remain unpublicised so long after the event is largely due to the fact that documented history tends to be the preserve of the victors.

[Brian]

Thanks guys, most interesting.

I am aware that those who have responded are all well-respected air historians/authors, whose opinions may differ from my own - but I do believe that any such incidents that can be substantiated should be made known. Not from the sensationist angle but as facts of history. As Peter says, we know such 'abuse' occurred, so I hope more incidents will be reported here.

Thanks

Brian

[Brian Bines]

A lot of the abuse cases appear to be by servicemen rather than civilians, and as Peter says a lot of tales turn out to be Urban myth. One story was that a Ju88 crew shot down over Portsmouth on 12-8-40 were excecuted by French Sailors and the bodies deposed of in their ships boilers. However three of the crew of one Ju88 shot down over Portsmouth were taken POW, and the body of one of the crew of Ltn Seidel's aircraft, which was reported as hit by AA over Portsmouth was washed ashore in France.
There is a darker version of the report that troops shot dead a 109 pilot as a mercy killing because he was trapped in his blazing cockpit after crash-landing.
Uffz Perez of II/JG26 shot down 30-9-40 claimed to have been shot/beaten up by troops after he belly-landed I do not know how true his claim is.
Fw Koslowski of 7/JG51 baled out badly burned on 25-10-40 and was treated by an off duty nurse who resisted the hostile attitude of other onlookers who wanted to leave the German to die. A case of both sides of human nature.
The surviving crew of the He177 shot down near Saffron Walden on 18/19-4-44 claimed to have been roughly handled bu US servicemen when taken to a US airfield.
The book Eagle Day by Richard Collier mentions a couple of 1940 incidents in Chapter 7 but these include the East Wittering incident dealt by Peter.
The victims of air-attack are not always likely to see enemy aircrew as 'Knights of the Air'.

[Brian]

Many thanks Brian - just what I'm looking for.

Cheers
Brian

[Andy Saunders]

Along with others on this forum, I have looked at cases of numerous "missing" Luftwaffe aircrew during 1940 (and later) who we KNOW were killed in various crashes. In some cases it seems that the Germans were notified that death was confirmed, and yet there are absolutely no graves to be found for them - not even as "Unknown". In many of those cases we also know that grisly remains of crew were found, but certainly never afforded the dignity of formal burial. There is little doubt that in some cases the hostile feelings of locals and nearby troops may have contributed to this attitude and resulted in remains being thrown back into the wreckage, buried under a nearby hedge - or worse. There are oft repeated tales of hostility and resistance towards the burial of Germans in local cemeteries and churchyards although I have never come across any actual evidence to substantiate this. Maybe others have? I have certainly come across cases where the remains were allegedly treated with disrespect. Really just an extension of the feelings that gave rise to the treatment meted out to some Luftwaffe POW's. As Peter pointed out, it was a shame that Zehbe's unfortunate end was glossed over - nay, silenced - in the "Fighter Dig Live" programme.