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  #1  
Old 8th January 2005, 21:10
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Jagdgruppe Drontheim. Lt. Werner Fricke(KIA) 29.11 1941

Weisse 10 Wnr.3471 was shot down over Mistfjord in Norway this day.
I am trying to find out what type of Messerschmitt Bf 109 he crashed.(E-1, E-7, T-1, T-2)
The werkenr.3471 might be wrong.
It was believed to be a bf 109T-2, but the Wnrs of the T-2 starts from 7735 to 7797

Any help sorting out this matter is much appreciated
TIA Kjell
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Old 8th January 2005, 22:34
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White 10!

The white 10 lost on that day was a Bf 190T. It was the normal mount of Johannes Ranwig, who on that day allowed a fellow pilot to fly it! It was not shot down, but the wings collapsed in a step dive. It was witneshed by Ranwig! There is a fault in the GQM-losslisting, as it says it was Wnr. 3471 and the crash occurred on the 9. of november. But VDK states the date as 29!!! There is a discription of the incident in the "Sea Eagles" by Marshall. But he also have the death date of Fricke as the 9! It would be grat if someone has the WASt-lossreport???

Junker
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Old 9th January 2005, 00:05
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Jagdgruppe Drontheim. Lt. Werner Fricke(KIA) 29.11 1941

The common opinon among local people in the area is that the plane was shot down by an allied plane. Your posting explaining that Ranwig witnessed the loss probably explains why the locals believed that it was shot down.

They probably took Ranwigs plane for an allied one, and seeing Frickes plane fall apart without any obvious reason, they believed he was shot down.

The KTB Seenotdienstführer Norwegen confirms the loss date to the 29th of november 1942.

Much of the plane was "salvaged" by locals, but has vanished over the years. One or more weapons is taken care of, and is in a local "museum".

The germans built a barge to transport the engine to the nearest village, but it was lost during transport.

Morten
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Old 9th January 2005, 05:07
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Notes on this loss

Hi, guys.

Please keep in mind that the recollections of Ranwig and others were recorded years after these incidents occured....

Regarding the losses mentioned directly and indirectly by the previous posters, I have the followited:

For November 9th 1941:

From Marshall:
Bf 109T-2, WNr 7755, Totalverlust bei Notlandung nahe Egersund wegen Motorstörung auf Feindflug

(Database record shown here: Bf 109T-2, WNr 7755)

From Marshall:
Bf 109E-7, WNr 3471, Totalverlust nahe Hitraa, Leutnant Werner Fricke vermisst.

(Database record shown here: Bf 109E-7, WNr 3471)

The loss of November 29th is recorded like this:

From Marshall:
Bf 109E-7, WNr 6363, Totalverlust nahe Hitraa, Uffz. Erich Kerstens gefallen.

(Database record shown here: Bf 109E-7, WNr 6363)


Thus it seems that if Ranwig witnessed the demise of 'Weisse 10' it was in fact none of the above losses he saw!

Further info from the Summarische Verlustemeldungen show that while the loss of WNr 3471 (Lt. Fricke) was recorded as a Category 20 (Totalverlust ohne Feindeinwirkung mit Feindauftrag), both the loss of WNr 6363 (Uffz. Kerstens) and WNr 7755 (Pilot unknown) indicate that enemy activity was involved. The losses are categorized as category 1 (Durch Feindeinwirkung vermisst) and category 5 (Totalverlust durch Feindeinwirkung auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuss ohne Feindbeobachtung) respectively.

Thus WNr 7755 was lost due to engine trouble after being hit by enemy gunfire, and Uffz Kerstens in WNr 6363 was reported as MIA after his aircraft had been shot at.

The possibility is still however that 'Weisse 10' was flown and lost by Lt. Fricke, as described by Ranwig, but then the aircraft WNr and subtype in the records are as Morten has mentioned, wrong.

According to my records, the only other possibility is then WNr 7748, an aircraft that was lightly damaged in June 41 with JG 77, and records after that has not been found. All other Bf 109T was either recorded as total losses in other accidents, ore are mentioned in reports far after the date we are talking about here.

In my opinion we should look to the other losses of Bf 109T's in JGr Drontheim to locate Ranwigs 'Weisse 10', something I will try to do tomorrow.

Regards,
Andreas
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Old 9th January 2005, 12:39
mmoe mmoe is offline
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Jagdgruppe Drontheim. Lt. Werner Fricke(KIA) 29.11 1941

It all a bit confusing, and to add a bit to the confusion, the following is recorded in the KTB Seenotdienstführer Norwegen:
29.11.41 (Since it is rewritten from an almost unreadable handwritten original, there may be some errors):

Sn.Bez.St. Drontheim meldet mit F.S. von 28.11.41.Betr. Seenotfall Bf 109 +10 von J.G. Drontheim:
He 59 DC+KC hat Pqu. 06 Ost 8461, 8462, 8463, 8464 ohne Erfolg abgesucht. Von JG eingesetzten FW 58 ebenfalls nichts gefunden. Nach norw. Meldung sollen im Pqu. 06 Ost 8461 Flugzeugtrümmer gesichtet sein. Die suchenden Flugzeuge konnten die Angaben nicht bestätigen.

From 30.11.41.
Sn.Bez.St. Stavanger meldet mit F.S. von 29.11.
Betr. Seenotfall Bf 109.
Me 109 in Moor gefunden. Nähere Einzelkeiten noch unbekannt. Ausgrabung erfolgt den 30.11.41.
Flugzeugführer vermutlich tot.

For the loss on the 9.11.41, the KTB records this loss:
Sn.Bez.St. Stavanger meldet mit F.S. 194/41 g.v. 9.11:
Am 9.11. 13.30 Uhr Seenotmeldung: 3 km westl. Vigrestadt ein Bf 109 abgestürzt. Einsatz KK+UX und R/S „Osloskøyta“ ohne Erfolg, da Flugzeugführer von einem VP-Boot gerettet wurde. Flugzeug gesunken.

On a part of the hull that is kept at a local farm near Mistfjorden, the white 0 is clearly visible, so I dont think there is any doubt that the plane that crashed at the head of the Mistfjord was White 10.

We also know that a dead pilot was found by the main section of the plane. The body was taken care of by germans, and taken away. Im pretty sure that the body wasnt buried locally. Werner Friecke is buried at Havsten, while Kerstens is not (does anyone have info about where Kersten is buried, if his body was found at all).

What I cant understand is why the position given in the KTB on the loss of Weisse 10 is so inaccurate, if Ranwig really observed the plane as it fell down (the plane and pilot were found in Pl.Qu. 06 Ost 84668).

Until some years ago, large sections of the wings remained in the area, but are now taken away by someone. If it was possible to have a look at these parts, it may could at least tell us if the plane was a T-2 or an E-version.

Morten
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Old 9th January 2005, 13:10
mmoe mmoe is offline
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Jagdgruppe Drontheim. Lt. Werner Fricke(KIA) 29.11 1941

According to mr. Mombeeks book about JG 5, the pilot on the Me 109 T-2 that ditched near Egersund is Staffelführer Leutnant Franz Wieshusen.

In Girbigs book, “Eismeerjäger” Erich Kersten is noted as belonging to 13. or 14./Jg 77 and I believe that these units were stationed at the Eismeerfront when he was killed, and in
Mombeeks book he is listed as killed while flying for 13./Jg 77 when his plane Me 109 E-7 Gelbe 17 was shot down by flak and crashed near the airport of Louhi, since then Kerber is missing.

Morten
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Old 9th January 2005, 14:51
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Jagdgruppe Drontheim. Lt. Werner Fricke(KIA) 29.11 1941

Thanks to all of you so far.

Summary: Pilot was Lt. Werner Fricke. He died 29.11 1941, buried at Havstein.
The A/C was a Messerschmitt bf 109 and belonged to Jagdgruppe Drontheim
Date of crash 29.11-41
White 10

Whats left to know is the serial(WNr.) and subtype(E or T)

regards Kjell
http://home.no.net/kjellsor/mistfjorden.html
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Old 9th January 2005, 16:31
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Wienhusen, not Wieshusen, Kersten not Kerber

Hi, guys.

If we are to clear this matter at all, we have to keep the fingers under control. Franz Wienhusen is the correct spelling, not Wieshusen. Erich Kersten is also the correct name of the pilot lost on November 9. afaikt.

As I haven't been able to go through the NVM's for I./JG 77 yet, I hadn't noticed the discrepancy with regards to Erich Kersten. However, by reviewing my database record, it is noted that he was listed under the losses for 'Osten', thus was lost in the northern part of the Lfl 5 operation area (operating against the SU), and not on the Norwegian West Coast. Thus we can safely assume that there is an error in the list by Marshall covering this incident.

I will contact Eric, as the only additional source for the loss of Kersten would be the NVM filed by the unit, and the information in his book definitely has the NVM lingo as recorded by I./JG 77 at the time. You will see that I have updated this loss with the info from Eric's book.

If Eric notes that Franz Wienhusen was the pilot of WNr 7755, I would assume this to be correct, but will ask him for the source for this info.

We still have a problem though.... The loss record for Fricke definitely list that the loss occured on November 9th.

I have reviewed the records again and I have a new conclusion regarding this:

The loss record in Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt has a typo, the date of the loss being wrong. It occured on November 29th, but was written in the report as November 9th.

If we look at the records filed by JGr Drontheim the error is quite obvious, as the unit reports losses consistingly 1-3 days after the loss occured at this time. In the Summarische Verlustemeldungen, the record we are talking about here was put in between 25.11.1941 and 02.12.1941.

In addition, the record reported by Captain Erling Vogstad on the grave record of Fricke show 29.11.1941.

Conclusion:

Correct all loss records on the loss of Lt. Fricke to show 29.11.1941, still we do not have evidence supporting that the aircraft was a Bf 109T as it is nothing in the reports beside the story by Ranwig that confirm that it is a Bf 109T.

As pilots tended to keep their numerals when switching aircraft, it is entirely possible that Bf 109E-7 WNr 3471 was the mount of Ranwig, coded 'Weisse 10', but that it is not the well documented and photographed T from Francis Marshall's book.

We have to get our hands on the NVM of Fricke now!

Regards,
Andreas
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  #9  
Old 12th January 2005, 21:38
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Jagdgruppe Drontheim. Lt. Werner Fricke(KIA) 29.11 1941

Just received a report from Mr. mmoe. He has been visiting the "local museum" in Hemne today.
He spotted the serial no: 4220, engraved on a part of the wreckage.
If this is the real serial, will it be a E-7 type then?
Did they have the E-7 type in Jagdgruppe Drontheim at this date 29.11 1941?

comments please

TIA Kjell
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Old 13th January 2005, 10:18
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Re: 4220

Hi.

Could be the WNr, also could be the WNr or part no of some sub-assembly (more likely).

They did have the E in Jagdgruppe Drontheim at this time. Please remember - the JGr Drontheim was much like an OTU was in the RAF, a unit to train pilots for later front service.

They did have about a Staffel (varying between 6 and 12 aircraft) which were operating as a coastal protection unit in the vicinity of Trondheim, using Lade, Ørlandet and Værnes as their bases, often they tended to be spread out on these bases. It seems that this Einsatzstaffel was equipped with the Bf 109T for a period of time, while the training flights were made in aircraft ranging from Ar 66 through Bf 109D and E, of various subtypes (and others also that I cannot mention on the fly).

In my opinion, to state that at this or that time JGr Drontheim used Bf 109T or Bf 109E exclusively is not possible, and it is also a known fact that they used what was available at the time of take-off. These aircraft were damaged to lesser or greater extent ALL the time, in take-off accidents, landing accidents, accidents on the ground etc etc etc, and were constantly fluctuating in and out of the roster of action-ready aircraft.

If You are on readiness and Your Bf 109T doesn't start, You sprint to the nearest aircraft which is cleared by the ground personnel and You strap in fast as %&%/!! And most of the time You do not care if the aircraft is yellow, green or pink or if it is coded White 10, Green 2 or Purple 13.

Regards!

Andreas
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